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What kind of melee weapon would people carry today?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post

    Kendoka girl, how long, in your estimation would it take someone to be passably competent in your chosen style? Say under these three scenarios:

    .....
    ... training four days a week for 3-6 hours
    ...training three days a week for an hour
    ...training in a big class for 2-3 days a week

    ....

    I guess the big question would be if any particular sword (or other medium-sized weapon) styles lent themselves to rapid acquisition of a passable skillset. Maybe quarterstaff/cane/bo? Or one of the 'backsword' styles like the naval cutlass or the cavalry saber? Quite a bit more rough and tumble there, with punching someone in the face with the guard being perfectly acceptable.
    Don't mean to interuppt the flow between thee and Kendoka girl but if I could just say; Longsword technique, at least, in most cases, incorporates pommel-strikes, half-swording, fist-strikes and catch/folk wrestling moves alongside bladework. Whilst the main weapon is the sword, one thing I'm picking up on is don't let that be the only weapon. Similarly we do a little bit of that in Jujitsu when doing sword-work; black-belt sword kata opens with a 'pommel-strike' (though Katana's have a cap not a pommel) to the face/sternum after a wrist-lock using the hilt.

    Looking at the chief sempei at my club, I'd say it took 4- 5 years to achieve a decent level of lethality with the katana in his case. Not sure how many times a week he trained, but he is also proficient in yari, sai, kama and tonfa - so imagine if he'd just stuck to one weapon. If we rely ont he belt system as a general indicator (though you'll always get some people lagging and others just naturally gifted) it'd take about 4 years to get to the level where you are proficient enough with a sword to start learning the n'th level techniques - as they say, when you get to black belt it's time to start learning martial arts. On the other hand I can swing the bokken with reasonable skill because of practice and I'm a complete novice on the belt-system but 'lots' of practice with swords of different kinds.


    Just a thought based on my much more limited experience than KG

    Edit: NVM, she got there first
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    • #62
      Originally posted by Selous View Post
      Don't mean to interuppt the flow between thee and Kendoka girl but if I could just say; Longsword technique, at least, in most cases, incorporates pommel-strikes, half-swording, fist-strikes and catch/folk wrestling moves alongside bladework. Whilst the main weapon is the sword, one thing I'm picking up on is don't let that be the only weapon. Similarly we do a little bit of that in Jujitsu when doing sword-work; black-belt sword kata opens with a 'pommel-strike' (though Katana's have a cap not a pommel) to the face/sternum after a wrist-lock using the hilt.

      Looking at the chief sempei at my club, I'd say it took 4- 5 years to achieve a decent level of lethality with the katana in his case. Not sure how many times a week he trained, but he is also proficient in yari, sai, kama and tonfa - so imagine if he'd just stuck to one weapon. If we rely ont he belt system as a general indicator (though you'll always get some people lagging and others just naturally gifted) it'd take about 4 years to get to the level where you are proficient enough with a sword to start learning the n'th level techniques - as they say, when you get to black belt it's time to start learning martial arts. On the other hand I can swing the bokken with reasonable skill because of practice and I'm a complete novice on the belt-system but 'lots' of practice with swords of different kinds.


      Just a thought based on my much more limited experience than KG

      Edit: NVM, she got there first
      I'm very limited in my knowledge of European swordsmanship other than fencing and the snippets of historical fencing that I've seen and been told. What I have seen amazes me as to the similarities of the styles. The human body only moves certain ways and the developers of the respective sword styles seemed to capitalize on that. In Iaido, we have also been taught a number of tsukaate (pommel strikes with the tsukagashira), soete (half swording), atemi (fist strikes), tai sabaki (various grappling techniques with or against weapons).
      TTFN

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      • #63
        Another question, how would the various stick-fighting styles (staff, escrima, etc) hold up against the various sword styles? I would figure that the sticks themselves would not last but so long against the sword.

        Also, are there any shorter weapons that a swordsman would have reason to fear. I posted up a video showing how a smallsword (and by association a rapier for the most part) could be bested by knife/tomahawk. Short of another sword or a polearm, are there any shorter weapon styles that could be learned, maybe even learned faster than the sword, and still cause a swordsman consternation?

        To expound quickly, by consternation I mean that at or after the first pass, when you realize that your opponent is reasonably competent you would think "Oh, this could be dicey". For example, a swordsman would have no reason to fear a lone spearman in unarmored combat (without shields) so long as the spearman isn't miles beyond the swordsman in skill, the spear just isn't quite as effective under those circumstances.
        Last edited by TacCovert4; 01 Jun 14, 21:17.
        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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        • #64
          Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
          Another question, how would the various stick-fighting styles (staff, escrima, etc) hold up against the various sword styles? I would figure that the sticks themselves would not last but so long against the sword.

          Also, are there any shorter weapons that a swordsman would have reason to fear. I posted up a video showing how a smallsword (and by association a rapier for the most part) could be bested by knife/tomahawk. Short of another sword or a polearm, are there any shorter weapon styles that could be learned, maybe even learned faster than the sword, and still cause a swordsman consternation?

          To expound quickly, by consternation I mean that at or after the first pass, when you realize that your opponent is reasonably competent you would think "Oh, this could be dicey". For example, a swordsman would have no reason to fear a lone spearman in unarmored combat (without shields) so long as the spearman isn't miles beyond the swordsman in skill, the spear just isn't quite as effective under those circumstances.
          Weapons that I'm familiar with that would fall under that category are the sai, jitte, and tonfa. To my knowledge, the sai is used in karate and kung fu and is about a foot long with two metal prongs to catch swords. The jitte has one prong and was used by constables in Japan in the Edo period. The tonfa is a block of wood with a handle that can be spun. All three are very formidable against swords.

          The naginata and cross bladed yari (spear) are also weapons that would give a swordsman pause. The philosophy of their use is that the blade is the shield.
          TTFN

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          • #65
            I think it would come down to the proficiency of the wielder- whatever the shortcomings of a given weapon (such as length - reach)it can be overcome by the tactics and skill of the wielder and used to beat a less experienced foe with a 'better' weapon.


            In relation to the thread in general, I was just watching this informative video on the medieval laws of England regarding the carrying of swords;

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            • #66
              How long would you say it would take to become competent with a Jitte? I'd say sai, but I believe those operate in pairs, and I'm looking for a weapon type that an average civilian would be able to carry about daily.

              My logic is if there are weapons that require less training than a sword and are at least equally as wieldy, or more wieldy, then you'd see society keep plugging along. However, if swordsmen are far and above better able to defend themselves/prosecute attacks, then you'll start to run into a meritocracy of sorts where over time the 'warrior' class becomes socially higher than the others because they're simply 'better'.
              Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Selous View Post
                I think it would come down to the proficiency of the wielder- whatever the shortcomings of a given weapon (such as length - reach)it can be overcome by the tactics and skill of the wielder and used to beat a less experienced foe with a 'better' weapon.


                In relation to the thread in general, I was just watching this informative video on the medieval laws of England regarding the carrying of swords;

                I must say looking at this latest contribution that this thread has now reached the height of stupidity,logic has flown. lcm1
                'By Horse by Tram'.


                I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                  I must say looking at this latest contribution that this thread has now reached the height of stupidity,logic has flown. lcm1
                  Then climb down from your cloud and explain where we lesser mortals are going wrong with it then. So far you've just said it's silly, without any explanation as to why you think that.

                  You never got back to Fritgern

                  Originally posted by Fritgern
                  Because there something so much more classy, intimate and exciting about melee fights. Anyone can get a gun and shoot someone, but to wield a melee weapon and have the guts to brutally maim someone is on another level. To best an opponent who thinks he's at an advantage is a feeling of accomplishment not much can match. To experience the fear of death and come out surviving is the most primal high. To do it with our hands and to feel and look into our opponents eyes as he passes this world gives fighting a whole different character. It makes us value life so much more when you have experienced taking it. But maybe I'm sensationalizing it too much. Some may become blood thirsty and enjoy killing, and some people want to avoid killing even if they are the best swordsman alive.
                  Or me;

                  Originally posted by Selous
                  'an some of us just like talking about swords.
                  So what's up?
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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                    How long would you say it would take to become competent with a Jitte? I'd say sai, but I believe those operate in pairs, and I'm looking for a weapon type that an average civilian would be able to carry about daily.

                    My logic is if there are weapons that require less training than a sword and are at least equally as wieldy, or more wieldy, then you'd see society keep plugging along. However, if swordsmen are far and above better able to defend themselves/prosecute attacks, then you'll start to run into a meritocracy of sorts where over time the 'warrior' class becomes socially higher than the others because they're simply 'better'.
                    You bring up a good point - culturally, the sword represented something more than a weapon. It was also a badge of office or social status. The level of training that goes into effective use is a status symbol in and of itself. Effectively, it was more versatile in its use than other melee weapon. A jitte is nearly 100% a defensive weapon, a spear, nearly 100% an offensive weapon. The sword offers an excellent balance between the two and you can hold it in a guard position unlike many other weapons. It also requires less energy per movement than a mace, flail, or other impact weapon. Like a baseball bat, a mace, etc, requires a backswing or cocking of the weapon for a good strike. A sword can be thrust or swung from a high or low guard without any preparatory move, compressing your opponent's ability to react or counterattack.

                    A jitte is like any other truncheon and can be learned quickly as a subdual weapon. The trick is that learning the timing to catch a sword in motion requires a lot more.
                    TTFN

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                    • #70
                      Here's a very nice video of what we call I-Waza or techniques done in a seated position at close quarters.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmBBFTW2kos
                      TTFN

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Kendoka Girl View Post
                        Here's a very nice video of what we call I-Waza or techniques done in a seated position at close quarters.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmBBFTW2kos
                        I am surprised; the third move there in that video I am acquainted with as part of our own seated sword-work with the WJJF.

                        I thought I'd also show the standing sword kata;
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7oZsnsH7l0
                        ------
                        'I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it.' - Thomas Jefferson

                        If you have questions about the forum please check the FAQ/Rules

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
                          Because there something so much more classy, intimate and exciting about melee fights. Anyone can get a gun and shoot someone, but to wield a melee weapon and have the guts to brutally maim someone is on another level. To best an opponent who thinks he's at an advantage is a feeling of accomplishment not much can match. To experience the fear of death and come out surviving is the most primal high. To do it with our hands and to feel and look into our opponents eyes as he passes this world gives fighting a whole different character. It makes us value life so much more when you have experienced taking it. But maybe I'm sensationalizing it too much. Some may become blood thirsty and enjoy killing, and some people want to avoid killing even if they are the best swordsman alive.
                          I think the word you're looking for is 'romanticizing'. Goes with being young and walking and living on the ground where so much blood has been spilled. The industrial revolution turned war from a test of strength to a numbers game. (lcm1's comments should probably be read with that in mind.)

                          One appeal of the martial arts is in the sense of control one gets as they gain mastery over a weapon. In our hyper-connected, over-caffeinated, instant-on world, even a small sense of control helps create a feeling of well-being. A sense that you are not completely at the mercy of a random and heartless universe. Growth however, comes when you realize it is yourself you are mastering.
                          Any metaphor will tear if stretched over too much reality.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Frtigern View Post
                            Because there something so much more classy, intimate and exciting about melee fights. Anyone can get a gun and shoot someone, but to wield a melee weapon and have the guts to brutally maim someone is on another level. To best an opponent who thinks he's at an advantage is a feeling of accomplishment not much can match. To experience the fear of death and come out surviving is the most primal high. To do it with our hands and to feel and look into our opponents eyes as he passes this world gives fighting a whole different character. It makes us value life so much more when you have experienced taking it. But maybe I'm sensationalizing it too much. Some may become blood thirsty and enjoy killing, and some people want to avoid killing even if they are the best swordsman alive.
                            Mate,I know nothing about your background to me you are a new kid on the block.I do not know your age but judging by the way you write teen age perhaps. I have partaken of some pretty sticky pub brawls in my time usually with my bare fists but occasionally with a homemade 'Blackjack'. In war I have looked into the eyes of death on more than one occasion while still in my teens, irrespective of the method or the type of weapon used, there is nothing romantic about violent death,that is why your attitude to this particular thread gives me a dose of the galloping POOS!!! lcm1
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

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                            • #74
                              Suicide vest, with my thumb on the trigger button held up prominently in front of me.

                              Clears any room of a melee double quick.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by lcm1 View Post
                                Mate,I know nothing about your background to me you are a new kid on the block.I do not know your age but judging by the way you write teen age perhaps. I have partaken of some pretty sticky pub brawls in my time usually with my bare fists but occasionally with a homemade 'Blackjack'. In war I have looked into the eyes of death on more than one occasion while still in my teens, irrespective of the method or the type of weapon used, there is nothing romantic about violent death,that is why your attitude to this particular thread gives me a dose of the galloping POOS!!! lcm1
                                Reminds me of an account by someone in OEF who had to make a slow kill, face to face at a distance of inches. What he mentioned was that, at least in this case, death has bad breath.

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