Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

NATO attack WP

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • NATO attack WP

    Hi mates. Lets say that Soviet coup was sucsesfull but in 1988., hardliners stay in power and Berlin wall didnt fall. NATO wants to "liberate" east europe but for 1st phase only NSWP countries. Where would be the best place to do so, with what units, wich routes, how much time...?

  • #2
    What is NSWP?

    Comment


    • #3
      Non Soviet Warsaw pact

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 82redleg View Post
        What is NSWP?
        New South Wales Police.....
        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Perun View Post
          Non Soviet Warsaw pact
          Got it, although I couldn't figure it out this morning, obviously.

          I thought that we'd discussed this before, but couldn't find with a quick search.

          Bottom line is that there aren't many good options, the terrain is just sucky to try to move west to east. The best way is across northern Germany toward Poland, but the weakest forces are there- a U.K. Corps, a German corps, and the Dutch and Belgians. All are light on artillery support, all (except the Germans) have significant forces in their home countries, particularly problematic for the U.K., and the Dutch and Belgians are comparatively poorly equipped. III (US) Corps is slated to deploy to NORTHAG, but only has one brigade forward.

          For the US/Germans to attack from CENTAG, where the NATO forces are much more capable,the terrain is awful- you're going against the flow to attack west to east through the Fulda Gap, and further south you just get trapped in Czech even if you do get through the mountains.

          The only other even remote option , though the terrain still sucks, is to attack into Bulgaria, but with what? Greeks and Turks? Impossible.

          There re was no planning done to attack west to east, because it would have been physically impossible, even if politically palatable, which it wasn't. A NATO attack east is a pipe dream.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by marktwain View Post

            New South Wales Police.....
            A friend just joined them and he has never expressed an interest in invading other countries. He did, however, mention an urge to taser the homeless. Good news for Germany, England and France et al, but bad news for people in cardboard boxes
            Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

            That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 82redleg View Post
              Got it, although I couldn't figure it out this morning, obviously.

              I thought that we'd discussed this before, but couldn't find with a quick search.

              Bottom line is that there aren't many good options, the terrain is just sucky to try to move west to east. The best way is across northern Germany toward Poland, but the weakest forces are there- a U.K. Corps, a German corps, and the Dutch and Belgians. All are light on artillery support, all (except the Germans) have significant forces in their home countries, particularly problematic for the U.K., and the Dutch and Belgians are comparatively poorly equipped. III (US) Corps is slated to deploy to NORTHAG, but only has one brigade forward.

              For the US/Germans to attack from CENTAG, where the NATO forces are much more capable,the terrain is awful- you're going against the flow to attack west to east through the Fulda Gap, and further south you just get trapped in Czech even if you do get through the mountains.

              The only other even remote option , though the terrain still sucks, is to attack into Bulgaria, but with what? Greeks and Turks? Impossible.

              There re was no planning done to attack west to east, because it would have been physically impossible, even if politically palatable, which it wasn't. A NATO attack east is a pipe dream.
              Excelent post. Thanks. But if we include reinforcements and mobilization units. I am interested in forces/axis of advance not so much in politics.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Perun View Post

                Excelent post. Thanks. But if we include reinforcements and mobilization units. I am interested in forces/axis of advance not so much in politics.
                I addressed forces/axis from NATO into th NSWP. I see three ways: east across the North German plain is best axis, but has weak forces. East/Northeast from southern West Germany into East Germany or Czechoslovakia has better forces, but worse terrain. North from Greece/European Turkey into Bulgaria has crappy terrain and weakest forces. Austria and Yugoslavia block a good portion of the land routes. I guess you could try something amphibious, but getting a large enough amphibious force into either the Baltic (to land in northern Poland) or the Black (to land in Romania) is a significant risk.

                Bottom line is it can't happen effectively, even with political will. The forces aren't set up for it, and the terrain sucks.

                Comment


                • #9
                  A difficult scenario. 1988-89 were the years when most of the eastern block nations began making a lot of independence noises. Perhaps possible to get them to agitate more to ensure their freedom movement in the event of hardliners holding on to power in Moscow. As for an actual invasion of Russia proper, what was the state of the Russian military during the time of the coup? I imagine they were on high alert, suspecting the West might take advantage of the instability?
                  You'll live, only the best get killed.

                  -General Charles de Gaulle

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Off the cuff, I'd say just invade Czechoslovakia and Hungary using mostly special forces / spec ops troops that create rear area havoc and use heavy doses of electronic warfare, particularly against civilian communications using things like the Compass Ghost and Compass Call aircraft.

                    https://airman.dodlive.mil/2018/06/1...-compass-call/

                    Compass Ghost is a similar plane but designed to cut into civilian radio and television and spoof them with propaganda or jam them out.

                    You then encourage Poland to revolt along with the Baltic states while keeping large conventional forces on the border of all these without really invading. This would force the Soviets to react with large conventional forces to try and put down the revolts and chaos going on.

                    Let East Germany spin for the initial operations. This would create a situation where the Soviets are being forced to draw units out of E. Germany into Poland etc., to counter the revolts and secure the border. Given typical Soviet units being roughly 90% 2 year conscripts with only basic skills training, the movement to do this and then use these troops in a civil conflict would create quite a bit of chaos up and down the military chain of command.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Nice one mate. Original

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well if the Soviet Union did not get involved, which is big not-ever-gonna-happen, then I can see it work. I could see a possibility by taking advantage of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, the Soviet–Albanian split and the end of the Tito–Stalin split to ally with Albania, Hungary, and Yugoslavia. If we wait until 1982 Spanish forces could join and the USSR economy was in decline, so it could've brought their dissolution sooner. Ireland, Finland, and Switzerland are out of the equation as they have treaties of neutrality that are not very negotiable. However, a deal with Sweden and Austria in 1955 would be beneficial. As the UK, I would highly rely on Commonwealth manpower and equipment support as well. Possibly station Asian and Oceania Commonwealth troops in northeastern Turkey to deter USSR troops in the Caucasus from invading.

                        The only way I could see NATO win was if Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, UK, US, Greece, and Turkey (and Spain if after 1982) fully mobilized, which would raise concerns by the USSR. A bonus if Albanian, Austrian, Hungarian, Swedish and Yugoslavian troops were available also. They could've tried to have hidden the mobilization under the guise of NATO exercises, but doubtful. Even all of their combined forces might not be enough. One of the problems in 1955 and even in 1982 was the interoperability of NATO military equipment, whereas WP countries had fairly standardized equipment along Soviet lines. A Soviet tank crew could probably jump in an East German T-55 and vice-versa and it would be nearly identical. NATO, on the other hand, was just beginning to think about standardizing equipment in 1955, although there was much more by 1982 but probably still less than WP countries.

                        The main axis of advance would follow the main rail lines and key ports. Reliance on Danish, German, Greek and Turkish ports and railroads as well.

                        Hamburg and Hannover to Berlin, to Gdynia/Gdansk, Bialystok, and Lublin.
                        Dortmund to Leipzig, Dresden, Wroclaw, Katowice, Krakow, and Rzeszow.
                        Krakow and Rzeszow to Košice, Cluj-Napoca, Brașov, Bucharest, and Constanța.
                        Bucharest to Varna.
                        Frankfurt to Nuremberg and Prague.
                        Munich to Brno, Bratislava, Budapest, Belgrade, Sofia, and Plovdiv.
                        Thessaloniki to Sofia.
                        İstanbul to Plovdiv.

                        This changes if Albania, Austria, Hungary Sweden and Yugoslavia are with us. Norway, Sweden, the UK and whoever else could attempt at seizing Gdynia/Gdansk from the sea. Forces from southern Germany, Austria and Italy would have an easier time cutting off Czechoslovakia and advance to Romania easier. Also, Italian troops could be ferried across to Zadar, Split, Dubrovnik, Bar, and Durrës to join in the Bulgarian push from the south with Albanian, Greek and Turkish troops.

                        All this would be a huge undertaking, akin to the Russian counteroffensives on the Eastern Front in WW2. Hopefully, we have a robust anti-Communist resistance movement in place to weaken and delay hardliner pro-Soviet forces while we use initiative to surprise and overwhelm them. With 1955 SAM and AAA not yet in maturity, jet aircraft being common and lessons learned from the Korean War, hopefully NATO can use jets and modern prop bombers and heavy lift aircraft to keep the WP countries demoralized and unsure. The Carpathian Mountains and Balkan Mountains are formidable terrain as well as the many rivers that cross Eastern Europe so capturing key bridges and tunnels will be vital.
                        The Europa Barbarorum II team [M2TW] needs YOUR HELP NOW HERE!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The other thing you could hope for by fermenting internal revolt would be that the Soviets would deploy troops from one WP nation into another, particularly troops from one that the other has animosity towards. For example, sending E. German troops and secret police into Poland. That would just be tossing gasoline on a fire.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 82redleg View Post
                            Got it, although I couldn't figure it out this morning, obviously.

                            I thought that we'd discussed this before, but couldn't find with a quick search.

                            Bottom line is that there aren't many good options, the terrain is just sucky to try to move west to east. The best way is across northern Germany toward Poland, but the weakest forces are there- a U.K. Corps, a German corps, and the Dutch and Belgians. All are light on artillery support, all (except the Germans) have significant forces in their home countries, particularly problematic for the U.K., and the Dutch and Belgians are comparatively poorly equipped. III (US) Corps is slated to deploy to NORTHAG, but only has one brigade forward.

                            For the US/Germans to attack from CENTAG, where the NATO forces are much more capable,the terrain is awful- you're going against the flow to attack west to east through the Fulda Gap, and further south you just get trapped in Czech even if you do get through the mountains.

                            The only other even remote option , though the terrain still sucks, is to attack into Bulgaria, but with what? Greeks and Turks? Impossible.

                            There re was no planning done to attack west to east, because it would have been physically impossible, even if politically palatable, which it wasn't. A NATO attack east is a pipe dream.
                            It would have been interesting - the world's first three way war/grudge match/Balkan- can can.... If it's Tuesday, we're allied with The Bulgars against the Turks....
                            On the serious side, after the Afgani saga, the ?Soviet Union was on death watch....
                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X