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Lithuania, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden & Norway in 1939

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  • Lithuania, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden & Norway in 1939

    3 days after signing the R-M pact Germany invades Lithuania, as agreed in the pact. This places the WM in a better position to invade Poland and close to Leningrad and Moscow.

    When the allies declare war on Germany, Hitler uses his forces in the west to invade Belgium on 4 September. The allies are stunned by the rapid fall of Eben Emael, etc, and the prompt obliteration of the Belgian air force and army.

    On September 22 Hitler invades Denmark, Sweden and Norway.
    After the fall of Poland and the Scandinavian countries, German forces redeploy rapidly to the west.

    After the rapid collapse of the neutral nations, British and French generals know that with Belgium completely in German hands, France can hardly be defended against the huge LW and WM and that the Maginot is of little use. The British are reluctant to send a large expeditionary force and especially planes and France knows that without British planes, she is doomed.

    When Stalin invades Finland in November, Hitler controls most of the Baltic. Mannerheim requests help from Germany to fight the Soviets, but Hitler needs Soviet supplies for the invasion of France and suggests that Finland cede the territory requested by Stalin and minimize its losses.

    On 18 April 1940 Germany invades France, advancing in a pincer movement through the Ardennes and along the French coast, trapping a large army, which cannot escape through the ports, now in German hands.
    Last edited by Draco; 21 Sep 14, 09:39.

  • #2


    But on 1 april 1940 Germany is launching from its secret bases in Antarctica 2000 V 4 rockets against the NE coast of the US,while a Mexican army leaded by Pancho Villa jr is invading Texas;the US surrenders,and,without the aid of the US, Britain also surrenders,which makes the invasion of France superfluous .

    On 1 april 1941,a US army commanded by Captain America is landing in Normandy and marchs to Germany, where it is stopped at Aachen by a section of the LSS.On 3 april ,Standartenführer Müller uses his smartphone and asks Rastenburg : send us more Amis ;he gets what he asks : on 4 april,the Red Berets arrive (leaded by the Duke and WT Sherman jr),no more Müller;they march through Germany,capture Rastenburg and hang Adolf .
    Last edited by ljadw; 21 Sep 14, 02:01.

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    • #3
      Wow hitler breaks the pact with Russia right from the beginning eh. Sounds like a recipe for success. You are aware that Lithuania was considered part of the Soviet sphere of influence, right?

      Well maybe not...

      This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and parts of Romania (Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region).


      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov...ibbentrop_Pact
      Credo quia absurdum.


      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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      • #4
        POST REMOVED BECAUSE OF PERSONAL ATTACK
        Last edited by Duncan; 21 Sep 14, 13:59.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
          Wow hitler breaks the pact with Russia right from the beginning eh. Sounds like a recipe for success. You are aware that Lithuania was considered part of the Soviet sphere of influence, right?

          Well maybe not...

          This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and parts of Romania (Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region).

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov...ibbentrop_Pact
          Please check the secret protocol of the original R-M pact. Lithuania was in the German sphere of influence. Only at the end of September did Stalin realize his mistake and asked Hitler to modify it.

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          • #6
            POST REMOVED BECAUSE OF PERSONAL ATTACK
            Last edited by Duncan; 21 Sep 14, 13:59.
            Credo quia absurdum.


            Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Draco View Post
              3 days after signing the R-M pact Germany invades Lithuania, as agreed in the pact. This places the WM in a better position to invade Poland and close to Leningrad and Moscow.

              When the allies declare war on Germany, Hitler uses his forces in the west to invade Belgium on 4 September. The allies are stunned by the rapid fall of Eben Emael, etc, and the prompt obliteration of the Belgian air force and army.

              On September 22 Hitler invades Denmark, Sweden and Norway.
              After the fall of Poland and the Scandinavian countries, German forces redeploy rapidly to the west.
              After the rapid collapse of the neutral nations, British and French generals know that with Belgium completely in German hands, France can hardly be defended against the huge LW and WM and that the Maginot is of little use. The British are reluctant to send a large expeditionary force and especially planes and France knows that without British planes, she is doomed.

              When Stalin invades Finland in November, Hitler controls most of the Baltic. Mannerheim requests help from Germany to fight the Soviets, but Hitler needs Soviet supplies for the invasion of France and suggests that Finland cede the territory requested by Stalin and minimize its losses.

              On 18 April 1940 Germany invades France, advancing in a pincer movement through the Ardennes and along the French coast, trapping a large army, which cannot escape through the ports, now in German hands.
              In September/October 1939, the British, whether reluctant or not, didn't have a large expeditionary force to send. Even by May 1940, the BEF consisted of only ten divisions, including partly-trained territorial divisions not intended for service in the front line, and the U.K. itself was hardly teeming with fully-trained Infantry Divisions looking for something to do.

              Why does France know that without British planes, she is doomed?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Doveton Sturdee View Post
                In September/October 1939, the British, whether reluctant or not, didn't have a large expeditionary force to send. Even by May 1940, the BEF consisted of only ten divisions, including partly-trained territorial divisions not intended for service in the front line, and the U.K. itself was hardly teeming with fully-trained Infantry Divisions looking for something to do.

                Why does France know that without British planes, she is doomed?
                Because she saw Lithuania, Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway fall in a couple of months, France lost dozens of fighters during the invasion of Belgium, the Maginot is useless with Germany in Belgium and AMerican planes are trickling in.

                Historically, France knew she was lost without British fighters and asked for them. Britain sent only a few, mostly Gladiators and 2 blade Hurricanes initially. Only after Churchill forced Dowding to send more (when it was too late), were more squadrons with modern, 3 blade Hurricanes sent.
                With the Germans already in Belgium months before the invasion, the British would be even more reticent to send planes or troops. Not only can the Germans invade France more easily, they can also operate U- and E-boats and bomb England from Belgium even before invading France.
                Last edited by Draco; 21 Sep 14, 14:56.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Draco View Post
                  3 days after signing the R-M pact Germany invades Lithuania, as agreed in the pact. This places the WM in a better position to invade Poland and close to Leningrad and Moscow.
                  Breaking the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty and potentially leading to a war with the Soviet Union since under that treaty Lithuania was considered in the Soviet sphere of influence and was being occupied by about 25,000 Red Army troops at the time.


                  When the allies declare war on Germany, Hitler uses his forces in the west to invade Belgium on 4 September. The allies are stunned by the rapid fall of Eben Emael, etc, and the prompt obliteration of the Belgian air force and army.
                  What forces? The Germans have 44 infantry divisions, 5 motorized divisions, 7 panzer and 4 light divisions in existence. The fallschirmjäger pioneer using gliders doesn't exist so Eben Emael is very unlikely to fall since there is no means of disabling the fortress as was done historically.
                  The French and British forces put their Dyer plan into action and advance into Belgium to support that nation.
                  Poland announces full mobilization of their armed forces and the nation goes onto a war footing. Prussia is threatened as their is no land link with Germany because the Danzig corridor is now closed.

                  On September 22 Hitler invades Denmark, Sweden and Norway.
                  After the fall of Poland and the Scandinavian countries, German forces redeploy rapidly to the west.
                  Swedish and Soviet raw materials moving to Germany cease. Denmark offers only token resistance but Sweden and Norway are a different story. With only limited means to move troops to either nation and about a third of the Luftwaffe tied up (including all the school training pilots and all of the advanced students) flying sorties with serious operational losses to deliver troops, seeing as how the KM has to deal with Sweden's and Poland's navies not to mention the RN they have only limited ability to assist in the invasion.
                  On the Polish border the roughly 20 or so German divisions available are unable to make much headway against the roughly 30 Polish infantry divisions and dozen or so cavalry brigades already mobilized.
                  The Luftwaffe tied up in Sweden, Norway, and the West offers a fraction of the air cover originally available. The Polish air force proves tenacious causing serious losses to German bombers.


                  After the rapid collapse of the neutral nations, British and French generals know that with Belgium completely in German hands, France can hardly be defended against the huge LW and WM and that the Maginot is of little use. The British are reluctant to send a large expeditionary force and especially planes and France knows that without British planes, she is doomed.
                  The Germans manage to take half of Belgium running into the French and British at the Dyer River where the two sides dig in. The Germans with just 20 infantry and panzer divisions combined have only sufficient strength to defend against superior numbers of French and British troops. With no swing through the Ardennes, the Allied lines are intact and hold.

                  When Stalin invades Finland in November, Hitler controls most of the Baltic. Mannerheim requests help from Germany to fight the Soviets, but Hitler needs Soviet supplies for the invasion of France and suggests that Finland cede the territory requested by Stalin and minimize its losses.
                  Stalin is tied up invading Prussia from Lithuania since the Soviets declare war on the Germans for breeching the R-M Treaty. The Red Navy moves into the Baltic complicating the German situation in Sweden.

                  On 18 April 1940 Germany invades France, advancing in a pincer movement through the Ardennes and along the French coast, trapping a large army, which cannot escape through the ports, now in German hands.
                  More like with the war effort failing and the German public seeing a repeat of WW 1 in the making with little hope of winning by May 1940 the German public is beginning to make noises of negotiated peace and losing confidence in Hitler.
                  His blundering, overreaching plan of conquest in shambles Hitler refuses all requests and is removed by force from office. The Germans lose.

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                  • #10
                    Again, please check the original secret protocol of the R-M pact. Lithuania was in the German sphere of influence. Stalin only realized his mistake at the end of September and asked for an amendment.
                    Had Hitler invaded Lithuania before Poland, Stalin could not have complained and would be under even stronger pressure to keep Germany happy in order to avoid war.

                    There are no British forces in France and the French have not mobilized when Hitler invades Belgium (immediately after the allies declare war). France has mostly MS-406s, since American planes arrived mostly after the war began.
                    The western LW concentrates on Belgium, shooting down French planes there after wiping out the Belgian air force in 2 days.
                    During the invasion of Belgium France will be busy mobilizing in a panic, since it expected Belgium to hold for months.
                    Last edited by Draco; 21 Sep 14, 16:29.

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                    • #11
                      The invasion of Lithuania in August puts additional pressure on Poland and on Stalin to attack Poland.
                      Accordingly, Stalin cannot afford to wait weeks and attacks Poland on 6 Sep. The Soviets advance along the Romanian-Polish border to link up with Slovak troops and isolate Poland. The Poles realize that they do not stand a chance fighting 2 collossi and capitulate on 22 Sept. Few Poles manage to escape through Romania.

                      The German invasion of Sweden induces Stalin to invade Finland on 8 Oct, 1939. Without snow for skis and to slow down the Soviets and without Swedish help, the Soviets advance despite heavy losses. Mannerheim has to yield the land that Stalin demands.

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                      • #12
                        Let's make it simpler. How are the Germans going to distribute the divisions and forces they have (in detail) to make all these things happen?

                        How many divisions / other units are involved in occupying Lithuania?
                        How many face Poland?
                        How many are used to invade Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Belgium?
                        How is Eben Emael overcome when the forces to do that don't exist in 1939?
                        Show us an order of battle Draco because right now you don't have $h!+ for proof that anything you've posted will work other than you worthless own word as demonstrated by previous fantasy scenarios you have proposed.
                        Long to short: Put up or shut up.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Draco View Post
                          Please check the secret protocol of the original R-M pact. Lithuania was in the German sphere of influence. Only at the end of September did Stalin realize his mistake and asked Hitler to modify it.
                          Do it yourself. Lithuania was divided between Germany and the USSR. Your scholarship is abysmal. So is your grasp of history.

                          Sincerely
                          Scott Fraser
                          Ignorance is not the lack of knowledge. It is the refusal to learn.

                          A contentedly cantankerous old fart

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Draco View Post
                            Because she saw Lithuania, Belgium, Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway fall in a couple of months, France lost dozens of fighters during the invasion of Belgium, the Maginot is useless with Germany in Belgium and AMerican planes are trickling in.

                            Historically, France knew she was lost without British fighters and asked for them. Britain sent only a few, mostly Gladiators and 2 blade Hurricanes initially. Only after Churchill forced Dowding to send more (when it was too late), were more squadrons with modern, 3 blade Hurricanes sent.
                            With the Germans already in Belgium months before the invasion, the British would be even more reticent to send planes or troops. Not only can the Germans invade France more easily, they can also operate U- and E-boats and bomb England from Belgium even before invading France.
                            Rubbish. Where is your evidence that France knew she was lost?

                            The British sent the air contingent that had been previously agreed with the French government and military. The bases allocated to the BEF's air contingent by the French were intended to cater for this number. Only a handful of the fighter aircraft were Gladiators, and the Hurricanes were a mixture of two and three bladed types (in fact, probably as many as two thirds were three bladed, as I demonstrated on a previous thread by examining the aircraft serial number - presumably you simply could not have been bothered to read it).

                            Further squadrons were sent when requested by the French government, but because of the limited facilities provided, the air contingents had real problems finding sufficient space for them on the fields they had been allocated.

                            Really none of this matters as however many squadrons the British sent, they were hardly likely to have reversed the outcome of the battle.

                            This may come as a shock to you, but the Germans were able to operate both U-Boats and S-Boats anyway. They had so few of both at the time that their contributions were minimal.

                            Still, great to see the TWO BLADED Hurricanes appearing on the first page of a new thread. When may we expect HMS Erebus, HMS Audacity & MAC Ships, 'Stupid' Churchill, 'Stupid' Cunningham, 'Stupid' Montgomery, and brilliant O'Connor?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Draco View Post
                              On September 22 Hitler invades Denmark, Sweden and Norway.
                              With what?
                              You have the campaign in Poland still going. The tank battles of Tomaszow Lubelski have just happened, Warsaw is holding out, and the German troops in Poland are either still fighting, or tired, depleted and short on equipment.
                              You have say 3 divisions tasked with occupying Lithuania, and it's a minimum considering that the real danger aren't the Lithuanians.
                              The German forces in the West, instead of keeping their heads low and blessing their luck that the French stopped their offensive, are deployed to both hold that front in the Saar and to conquer and keep Belgium and one guesses Luxembourg.

                              So what the heck do you send in Denmark, Norway and Sweden?
                              Michele

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