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  • Originally posted by Tsar View Post
    No one expected France to fold as quickly as it did. Stalin (and the rest of the world) expected a re-fighting of WWI which would bleed France, Germany, and Britain white and leave the Soviet Union the undisputed super power in Europe.
    The only things that saved France in WW I were the Russian thrust into Germany in 1914, the heroic Belgian resistance, the large influx of British troops and Italy turning its back on Germany and joining the allies. Without any of those things it is rather nave to expect a long war. Moreover, Stalin knows about the great superiority in planes, army, etc, of Germany over Belgium, France and Britain and had seen how fast Poland folded (which everybody also expected to last longer). So if by the time Germany attacks France, Stalin still expects a long war, he is an idiot.

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    • Originally posted by Draco View Post
      The only things that saved France in WW I were the Russian thrust into Germany in 1914, the heroic Belgian resistance, the large influx of British troops and Italy turning its back on Germany and joining the allies. Without any of those things it is rather nave to expect a long war. Moreover, Stalin knows about the great superiority in planes, army, etc, of Germany over Belgium, France and Britain and had seen how fast Poland folded (which everybody also expected to last longer). So if by the time Germany attacks France, Stalin still expects a long war, he is an idiot.
      I suppose the Yanks had nothing to do with it, your hand waving is rather sad.
      Credo quia absurdum.


      Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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      • Originally posted by Draco View Post
        The only things that saved France in WW I were the Russian thrust into Germany in 1914, the heroic Belgian resistance, the large influx of British troops and Italy turning its back on Germany and joining the allies. Without any of those things it is rather nave to expect a long war. Moreover, Stalin knows about the great superiority in planes, army, etc, of Germany over Belgium, France and Britain and had seen how fast Poland folded (which everybody also expected to last longer). So if by the time Germany attacks France, Stalin still expects a long war, he is an idiot.
        That is equally oblivious to history. Between the arrival of the BEF in France and the "Miracle of the Marne" coupled with a German lack of sufficient railway engineers to rebuild the lines in Belgium the German offensive ground to a halt. The Belgians pretty much folded up and were just holding on in the defenses of Antwerp.
        The Russian entry into the war did nothing to affect that.

        Germany in WW 1 went on to crush the Russians. Then the Italians. They almost finished the French and British in 1918 in the Kaiser's Offensives and made far more spectacular gains of ground using Strosstruppen tactics than the Allies ever managed with tanks.
        It was literally only a combination of the influx of US troops and the Germans being worn out by the war that prevented them from winning in France too.

        Stalin expects the Red Army to perform adequately and that the vastness of the ground between the Germans and Russia will make victory a possibility. Poland was seen by the French and British as an inevitability. The country simply didn't have the manpower, resources, or terrain to withstand a German offensive.
        And, if as you suggest Stalin expects a short war with Germany then there is even less reason to invade Romania as it puts much of his army in a terrible position to stop the Germans ensuring that in a short war they are more likely to win.

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        • The only possibility for Stalin to prevent Hitler from taking Poland was to fight against Hitler .But,there were some "minor" problems,as

          1)Given the strained relations with Poland,how could Stalin help Poland ? Only by invading Poland .

          2)If Britain and France would not fight for Poland,why should Stalin ?

          3)If Britain and France would fight for Poland, why should Stalin ?

          Stalin did the only thing that was possible and reasonable : he prevented Hitler from taking the whole of Poland .

          When Hitler told Stalin that he would attack Poland, Stalin was cornered:the only thing he could do was to make the best of a bad job.

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          • Originally posted by Draco View Post
            Moreover, Stalin knows about the great superiority in planes, army, etc, of Germany over Belgium, France and Britain and had seen how fast Poland folded (which everybody also expected to last longer). So if by the time Germany attacks France, Stalin still expects a long war, he is an idiot.

            Germany had no great superiority over France ,Britain ,Belgium .

            A lot of German generals expected a long war in the west,thus they also were idiots ?

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            • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
              Germany had no great superiority over France ,Britain ,Belgium .

              A lot of German generals expected a long war in the west,thus they also were idiots ?
              Well, surely someone was... is...

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                Germany had no great superiority over France ,Britain ,Belgium .

                A lot of German generals expected a long war in the west,thus they also were idiots ?
                Obviously.
                Belgium had a few Gladiators, etc, (destroyed in the first days), France had MS.406s and a few P-36s and Britain sent a couple of hundred Hurricanes with 2 blade propellers against over 800 Bf 109s and 110s, plus thousands of bombers destroying planes on the ground and the allies used no Radar to guide their few planes..
                France had spent fortunes and wasted invaluable years building the Maginot and a large fleet, both of which could do nothing to save Belgium and western France. It had also built large, slow tanks without radios or enough trucks and fuel dumps to supply them. Finally, French generals were directing the show from a palace near Paris and had a stupid plan which involved a long advance from France through Belgium and Holland into Germany, all the time under air inferiority (despite the lessons from Poland).

                The only way a long war could result is if the Soviets attack and force Germany to fight on 2 fronts, sending much of the LW, armor, munitions, troops, etc, to the east and giving the allies time to wear down the LW in the west, while allied and American plane production swamps the ridiculous German production.

                Stalin put Hitler in power (he ordered the Cummonists not to form a coalition with the social democrats), helped him to become stronger conducting military exercises and training officers in the USSR and then enabled Hitler to start the war in 1939 with the R-M pact. Finally, he continued supplying Hitler long after his spies informed him of the impending invasion (including lots of supplies while he invaded Norway, France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Yugoslavia and fought in Africa and the BoB). What can be more stupid.

                The only thing that saved Stalin was that German industry was ridiculous and Hitler had lost a lot of planes pointlessly in the BoB before invading the huge USSR over a 2,800 km front with a ridiculous number of planes, tanks, cannon, MGs, mortars, trucks (mostly captured from several countries), etc, Mostly millions of men with bolt action rifles walking from Poland and Romania to Moscow, Rostov, Leningrad, Kharkov, etc, with horses hauling cannon, ammo, food, etc, while a few motorized men fought in the front non stop for months. The slowly advancing mass wasting the few months of decent weather.

                If Germany had had more planes, tanks, cannon and trucks for its millions of men and if Hitler had let Manstein plan and execute the invasion (instead of planning it himself in the most stupid possible way and then changing the plans for the worse frequently), Stalin would have lost the war. He was a complete idiot.

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                • Well if they were complete idiots who ruled countries how much of Mexico do you rule?

                  See its like this draco. You have 20/ 300 hindsight and have absolutely no clue as to how the various campaigns worked or failed. You pay zero attention to logistics, and you say that they were idiots?

                  If you were at the helm of any of the participants they would lose unless your staff shot you right from the git go.
                  Credo quia absurdum.


                  Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Draco View Post
                    Obviously.
                    Belgium had a few Gladiators, etc, (destroyed in the first days), France had MS.406s and a few P-36s and Britain sent a couple of hundred Hurricanes with 2 blade propellers against over 800 Bf 109s and 110s, plus thousands of bombers destroying planes on the ground and the allies used no Radar to guide their few planes..
                    France had spent fortunes and wasted invaluable years building the Maginot and a large fleet, both of which could do nothing to save Belgium and western France. It had also built large, slow tanks without radios or enough trucks and fuel dumps to supply them. Finally, French generals were directing the show from a palace near Paris and had a stupid plan which involved a long advance from France through Belgium and Holland into Germany, all the time under air inferiority (despite the lessons from Poland).

                    The only way a long war could result is if the Soviets attack and force Germany to fight on 2 fronts, sending much of the LW, armor, munitions, troops, etc, to the east and giving the allies time to wear down the LW in the west, while allied and American plane production swamps the ridiculous German production.

                    Stalin put Hitler in power (he ordered the Cummonists not to form a coalition with the social democrats), helped him to become stronger conducting military exercises and training officers in the USSR and then enabled Hitler to start the war in 1939 with the R-M pact. Finally, he continued supplying Hitler long after his spies informed him of the impending invasion (including lots of supplies while he invaded Norway, France, Belgium, Holland, Greece, Yugoslavia and fought in Africa and the BoB). What can be more stupid.

                    The only thing that saved Stalin was that German industry was ridiculous and Hitler had lost a lot of planes pointlessly in the BoB before invading the huge USSR over a 2,800 km front with a ridiculous number of planes, tanks, cannon, MGs, mortars, trucks (mostly captured from several countries), etc, Mostly millions of men with bolt action rifles walking from Poland and Romania to Moscow, Rostov, Leningrad, Kharkov, etc, with horses hauling cannon, ammo, food, etc, while a few motorized men fought in the front non stop for months. The slowly advancing mass wasting the few months of decent weather.

                    If Germany had had more planes, tanks, cannon and trucks for its millions of men and if Hitler had let Manstein plan and execute the invasion (instead of planning it himself in the most stupid possible way and then changing the plans for the worse frequently), Stalin would have lost the war. He was a complete idiot.
                    Oh Joy! Here are the two bladed Hurricanes again! I cannot begin to express how much I have pined for them!

                    Actually, on 10 May, 1940, there were nine RAF fighter squadrons in France, of which seven were entirely equipped with Hurricanes, and two with a mixture of Hurricanes and Gladiators. As I demonstrated on a long-closed thread some time ago, which Mr. Draco clearly did not read, examination of the aircraft serial numbers reveals that more than half, and possibly as many as two thirds, were of the three bladed version.

                    Additionally, there were four squadrons of Blenheim IV, each with 16 aircraft, and 8 squadrons of Battles, again with 16 aircraft each.

                    Finally, there were two army co-operation squadrons, both equipped with Lysanders.

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                    • Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                      The only possibility for Stalin to prevent Hitler from taking Poland was to fight against Hitler .But,there were some "minor" problems,as

                      1)Given the strained relations with Poland,how could Stalin help Poland ? Only by invading Poland .

                      2)If Britain and France would not fight for Poland,why should Stalin ?

                      3)If Britain and France would fight for Poland, why should Stalin ?

                      Stalin did the only thing that was possible and reasonable : he prevented Hitler from taking the whole of Poland .

                      When Hitler told Stalin that he would attack Poland, Stalin was cornered:the only thing he could do was to make the best of a bad job.
                      As suggested, Stalin does not even have to fight, he need only threaten with fighting, instead of signing the R-M pact. Hitler would never start a war on 2 fronts.
                      He need only provide 300 I-15s, obsolete tanks, cannon, ammo, fuel, etc, to Poland to show Germany and Poland that he means business.

                      Even if Hitler were so stupid or crazy as to start a 2 front war, Stalin can immediately bomb Bohemia, East Prussia, etc, invade East Prussia through Lithuania and occupy a corridor along the short Polish-Romanian border only, in order to attack Slovakia and Bohemia. From Slovakia, Lithuania and Ukraine Stalin can fight the LW.

                      As mentioned already, Stalin not only enabled, encouraged and helped Hitler to wipe out the Polish army, the idiot had yielded Lithuania to Germany in the R-M pact, placing the WM closer to Leningrad and Moscow than from the Polish border. He only corrected this disastrous blunder at the end of September and because stupidly Hitler did not invade Lithuania in August, immediately after signing the R-M pact and before invading Poland.

                      Dissuading Hitler by buttressing Poland makes much more sense than encouraging Hitler, coperating with him and supplying him and forcing Finland and Romania to become German allies and originally yielding Lithuania in the R-M pact, if Stalin wants to buy time.
                      Last edited by Draco; 13 Sep 14, 12:09.

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                      • You ignore history completely.

                        Stalin was not convinced the French and British would fight nor did he believe they were interested in an alliance to stop Hitler. As for Poland, she steadfastly refused any and all support and rebuffed all Soviet attempts at rapproachment in order to form a bloc against Hitler.

                        Hitler was coming and Stalin knew the Red Army was not ready. He made a cynical if savvy decision with the R-M Pact and it bought the SU 2 years and pushed the German frontier 200 miles and more west of where it would have been had he remained neutral.

                        You hindsight arguments and counting of rifles changes none of this.

                        Open again,... enjoy.
                        Last edited by The Purist; 24 Sep 14, 20:39.
                        The Purist

                        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                        • If the red army is not ready, the USSR will be rolled over right after Poland. Its only hope it to fight alongside Poland, France and Britain.

                          If Stalin wanted to buy time with the R-M pact, it was extremely stupid of him to include Lithuania in the German sphere of influence in the original secret protocol. Hitler could have invaded Lithuania the day after signing the protocol and been that much closer to attack the USSR, even before or without invading Poland.

                          Even if Poland refuses help before being invaded (Stalin demanded right of way through it to assist it), if Stalin does not sign the R-M pact, Hitler will not invade Poland.

                          Moreover, even if Hitler insanely attacks Poland without the R-M pact, risking a nightmare war with France, Britain, Poland and the USSR, in order to save the Polish shield and the USSR Stalin can roll over Latvia and Lithuania to attack Germany. He can also stop supplying Hitler, give the Poles vehicles, artillery, munitions, etc, He does not need right of way.


                          The idea that enabling and assisting Hitler to wipe out the Polish army in 1939 bought the USSR time is absurd, it only provided more resources for Hitler and brought him closer to Kiev, Moscow, etc,

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                          • Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
                            I'm waiting for hairog to show up and confirm Draco's super-Soviet army that conquers Europe nigh-unopposed.
                            That only comes after May, 1946 and not before...Duh.
                            www.wwiii1946.blogspot.com
                            http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...pf_rd_i=507846

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                            • I think it is far more formidable with its 3 best marshals (Tukhachevski, etc,) and hundreds of the best generals and colonels in 1936, when the US and all of Europe and Asia are completely unprepared than in 1946 with atomic bombs, a huge US and British military industry, air force, army and navy, experienced German troops and leaders, while the red army is led by Zhukov, Koniev, etc, who killed more Soviets than Germans.

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                              • Tirpitz, etc, forced the two enormous navies to waste huge resources, including the only fast US BBs in 1942 for a while, letting their submarines wreak havoc as late as April 1943. It is really incredible that with their enormous resources they could not sink Tirpitz, etc, in 1941 and forgot about them.

                                It is absurd to think only about deterring indefinitely, instead of eliminating the threat now. That is why 3 industrial powers with huge populations and natural resources took years and ridiculous amounts of money to defeat weak Italy and even longer for weak Japan and Germany.
                                If the idea is to win at any cost, regardless of absurd and costly tactics and strategies and operational blunders, then why spend fortunes in military academies? might as well let politicians or cheerleaders run the whole show. They will lose millions of men and billions of dollars, but eventually will win anyway.
                                Incompetence ruled in 1812, the union army, Cuba, WW I, WW II, Korea, Vietnam, etc, despite Sandhurst. West Point, Anapolis, etc, Closing them might produce better strategies and tactics.

                                I thought that the money and talent wasted developing the Osprey was incredible, but did you see how many billions were wasted in the US alone developing light self propelled howitzers, etc, in the last 25 years? and they ended up buying a hellaciously expensive, British titanium howitzer.

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