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  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Iron ore? No. Swedish ships. Yes. The Soviets sank a number of those too.

    Soviet subs sank 5 Swedish merchants during the war:

    6/22/42 Ada Gorthon with 4,000 tons ore. The only ore cargo ship they sank. 2405 grt

    7/9/42 Margareta 1272 grt

    8/18/42 C. F. Liljevalch 5513 grt

    10/29/42 Bengt Sture 872 grt

    11/7/42 Lulea 5611 grt

    9/6/44 Hansa 493 grt

    12/29/44 Všnersborg 1044 grt
    Thanks, really interesting.

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    • Originally posted by Bwaha View Post
      TA please stop responding to his masturbation fantasies.

      Its icky...

      He wants to be beaten...
      I was told I need to exercise more...

      Comment


      • Okay...

        I'm not the judgmental type of person.

        But could you do that in a private setting pls?

        Not in front of the women and kids...

        Pls.
        Credo quia absurdum.


        Quantum mechanics describes nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And yet it fully agrees with experiment. So I hope you can accept nature as She is - absurd! - Richard Feynman

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        • Originally posted by Draco View Post
          The motives for Stalin's capturing Romania are:
          a) Deprive Germany of oil, access to Turkey and a potential ally.
          b) Move the front further away from Ukrainian industry and agriculture.
          b) Connect with Bulgaria to attack Turkey and control the Black Sea. Connect with Hungary and Yugoslavia to attack Slovakia, Austria and Bohemia and to induce Italy to join the allies.
          d) Create mutually beneficial alliances with Bulgaria, Hungary and Yugoslavia.
          e) Romanian artillery will boost its neighbors firepower.
          There is no interest at all in Transylvania, The more of Romania other than Ploesti, Bessarabia, Bukovina and the Black Sea coast which is occupied by Romania's neighbors the sooner Romania collapses and the better for the USSR (fewer occupation troops).
          1) If there is no interest at all in Transylvania and if Hungarian cooperation is secured then a Soviet thrust from Poland into Transylvania is out of the question.

          2) Yugoslavia would be interested at most in some part of the Romanian Banat. Bulgaria would be interested in Cadrilater. If you look at the map these are small peripheral territories. Once they secure them, and that would happen with no serious difficulties since most of the Romanian army would be focusing in the east to resist the Soviets, the Yugoslav and Bulgarian involvement would cease. So this Yugoslav and Bulgarian involvement would not affect the Romanian army.

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          • Not necessarily, Germany invaded part of Poland that it then yielded to the USSR. This helped Germany to defeat completely the Polish army in its sector. The USSR can do the same with northern Transylvania, insuring that the Romanian army cannot maneuver and is promptly defeated.

            When a large neighbor collapses it's difficult to predict how deep Yugoslavia and Bulgaria will advance in order to gain the most territory and to keep the border so far as possible from their capitals. Fighting the Romanian army would be the best exercise for their armies and an opportunity to test their tactics and weapons, while gaining territory and captured armament.
            Last edited by Draco; 10 Sep 14, 09:58.

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            • Originally posted by Draco View Post
              When a large neighbor collapses it's difficult to predict how deep Yugoslavia and Bulgaria will advance in order to gain the most territory and to keep the border so far as possible from their capitals. Fighting the Romanian army would be the best exercise for their armies and an opportunity to test their tactics and weapons, while gaining territory and captured armament.
              ...and to distance themselves from any possible ally should Soviet Union come knocking their way.

              Do you have any proof, example or theory that any of these countries would join up with the Soviets? Any similar situation? Like Finland being invaded by Sweden because Soviets were gonna gobble them up...?
              Wisdom is personal

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              • Originally posted by Draco View Post
                Not necessarily, Germany invaded part of Poland that it then yielded to the USSR. This helped Germany to defeat completely the Polish army in its sector. The USSR can do the same with northern Transylvania, insuring that the Romanian army cannot maneuver and is promptly defeated.
                In my view something similar between Hungary and the USSR would have required contacts or negotiations prior to the launch of operations. And in those negotiations the Hungarians would probably agree to take part in the invasion from day one but would ask to advance into Transylvania alone or just with small auxiliary soviet forces. Your scenario - USSR invites Hungary to take part in the operations one day after the invasion starts - is unrealistic in my view (because of the complicated ethnic make-up of Transylvania and Hungarian sensitivities) and should be amended.

                Originally posted by Draco View Post
                When a large neighbor collapses it's difficult to predict how deep Yugoslavia and Bulgaria will advance in order to gain the most territory and to keep the border so far as possible from their capitals. Fighting the Romanian army would be the best exercise for their armies and an opportunity to test their tactics and weapons, while gaining territory and captured armament.
                In the regular timeline as far as I recall Yugoslavia didn't have any territorial demands on Romania in 1940. So at most in your scenario they would try to grab some parts of the Banat area. Even if they were to want to take it all, the area would remain peripheral. I doubt Romania would even try to hold it since its forces would be focused in the east and probably north. Same for the Bulgarians. Why would the Yugoslavs and Bulgarians go beyond the territory they want and they easily got just in order to engage the Romanian army or conquer urban centers of importance that they don't plan to hold anyway?

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                • Originally posted by Karri View Post
                  ...and to distance themselves from any possible ally should Soviet Union come knocking their way.

                  Do you have any proof, example or theory that any of these countries would join up with the Soviets? Any similar situation? Like Finland being invaded by Sweden because Soviets were gonna gobble them up...?
                  Romania, Bulgaria and Finland did join the USSR in 1944 against Germany when they had no choice. Yugoslavia did oppose Germany and Italy from the beginning (when Germany and Italy were powerful, Britain weak and the USSR a German ally). Italy did join the allies when faced with overwhelming power.
                  Bulgaria had fought Romania in WW I, rather than fighting the stronger neighboring Ottoman empire.
                  Romania and Italy were allies of the central powers before WW I and turned their backs on them when faced with fighting against strong allies (losing the Italian navy) or against the central powers under attack by Russia, France, Belgium and Britain.
                  The only tie between Germany and Bulgaria, Yugoslavia and Hungary is that Germany has been buying their produce dirt cheap in exchange for industrial products for years. If Britain, Italy and the USSR replace Germany as trading partners, while the 3 Balcan nations expand, everybody wins, except Romania and Germany.

                  In May 1940 when Germany cannot afford to attack the USSR, its sole supplier and the USSR has invaded Poland and if the USSR does not lose prestige, men and materiel attacking Finland in the winter, Hungary has no choice but to join the steam roller and benefit. Yugoslavia and Bulgaria then have even less choice when they see Romania rapidly collapse (they are as weak or weaker than Romania). Bulgaria is even further from Germany than Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania. Turkey, its only hope, is too weak to fight the Soviets alone.

                  The eventual Soviet-Bulgarian invasion of Turkey saves Britain the need to buy chromite from Turkey in 1940, 41 and 42 and the difficulty of transporting it from the mines to Med ports, etc, in order to deprive Germany of supplies (Britain has plenty of chromite in South Africa).
                  Last edited by Draco; 10 Sep 14, 12:51.

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                  • Originally posted by Draco View Post
                    Romania, Bulgaria and Finland did join the USSR in 1944 against Germany when they had no choice. Yugoslavia did oppose Germany from the beginning (when Germany was extremely powerful, Britain weak and the USSR a German ally). Italy did join the allies when faced with overwhelming power.
                    More like when they were forced to. They didn't do it willingly. They did it because the Soviets left them no choice. In the post war era the Soviets also ensured that governments friendly to them were forcibly put in place, dissidents and potential trouble makers were shot or sent to prison camps. The alternative was they were marked by the secret police and banned from most jobs, banned from political participation etc.
                    Then the older military, the one not raised by the Soviets was disbanded.
                    Italy after the surrender remained divided. Mussolini set up the RSI state in Northern Italy and continued fighting with the Germans.
                    The Royalist faction joined the Allies.
                    So, to blithely claim they joined the Allies is showing an ignorance of history.



                    In May 1940 when Germany cannot afford to attack the USSR, its sole supplier and the USSR has invaded Poland and if the USSR does not lose prestige, men and materiel attacking Finland in the winter, Hungary has no choice but to join the steam roller and benefit. Yugoslavia and Bulgaria then have even less choice when they see Romania rapidly collapse (they are as weak or weaker than Romania). Bulgaria is even further from Germany than Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania.

                    The eventual Soviet-Bulgarian invasion of Turkey saves Britain the need to buy chromite from Turkey in 1940, 41 and 42 and the difficulty of transporting it from the mines to Med ports, etc, in order to deprive Germany of supplies (Britain has plenty of chromite in South Africa).
                    Just because you keep saying that doesn't make it true. The Germans would be forced to attack the Soviet Union on two grounds: The breaking of treaties by the Soviets that were made with Germany and second because the Germans would see the threat and respond to it.
                    The USSR takes an @$$ kicking because some moron pulled most of their army in the West out of position to defend Russia in a vain attempt to take the Balkans where it got bogged down in endless expensive fighting.

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                    • Originally posted by Draco View Post
                      Romania, Bulgaria and Finland did join the USSR in 1944 against Germany when they had no choice. Yugoslavia did oppose Germany from the beginning (when Germany was extremely powerful, Britain weak and the USSR a German ally). Italy did join the allies when faced with overwhelming power.
                      When they had no choice.

                      Yugoslavia opposed Germans after the coup. In fact, the most likely outcome of this invasion is that no such coup happens as the people in charge are more concerned about Soviet aggression.

                      In May 1940 when Germany cannot afford to attack the USSR, its sole supplier and the USSR has invaded Poland and if the USSR does not lose prestige, men and materiel attacking Finland in the winter, Hungary has no choice but to join the steam roller and benefit. Yugoslavia and Bulgaria then have even less choice when they see Romania rapidly collapse (they are as weak or weaker than Romania). Bulgaria is even further from Germany than Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania.
                      Hungary can simply stay neutral. There is no way they'd risk waging war against Germany just because Soviet Union invaded Romania. All in all, these countries are most likely going to simply stay neutral...

                      The eventual Soviet-Bulgarian invasion of Turkey saves Britain the need to buy chromite from Turkey in 1940, 41 and 42 and the difficulty of transporting it from the mines to Med ports, etc, in order to deprive Germany of supplies (Britain has plenty of chromite in South Africa).
                      Wisdom is personal

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Karri View Post
                        When they had no choice.

                        Yugoslavia opposed Germans after the coup. In fact, the most likely outcome of this invasion is that no such coup happens as the people in charge are more concerned about Soviet aggression.



                        Hungary can simply stay neutral. There is no way they'd risk waging war against Germany just because Soviet Union invaded Romania. All in all, these countries are most likely going to simply stay neutral...





                        Hungary is much weaker than Romania. If it remains neutral it can only expect to be invaded next or split like Poland was or become the battle ground. All worse alternatives than recovering the territory it had recently lost from a neighbor being steamrolled and joining the allies against Germany. Yugoslavia is in a similar situation. It has to take sides or be invaded or become the battle ground. If it stays neutral it will be the battle ground. If it takes sides with Germany, it will have to fight Britain, it will have no oil and little armament, since German industry is much smaller than British and Soviet industry. If it joins the allies it will receive British and Soviet armament, oil, munitions, etc, and be on the side of a massive army and navy fighting a surrounded, isolated Germany without supplies.

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                        • The biggest flaw in this totaly implausible scenario is that it asks Hungary, which directly borders Hitler's reich to march east and south while 80 odd German divisions are available to counter any moves against Romania. Germany could easily sit on the defensive in Poland and march on Budapest within week. Very shortly the Hungarian government would be changed and the Hungarian army turning on the Soveit forces.

                          Hungary can keep Transylvania and is now an axis allied. Yugoslavia would then join the axis along with Bulgaria and possibly Greece.

                          It cannot be stressed enough how anti-Communist these governments were. The entire reason Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria joined the axis was to gain protection from Soviet expansion into the Balkans. Yugoslavia was also headed in that direction and at best would have remained a pro-axis neutral but for the coup. The Soviet attack would push them into the axis camp.

                          None of the Balkan states were run by fools, they may not have shared the Nazis racial policies and ideologies but they all shared a fear of the Stalinist regime in the USSR.

                          At best the USSR might launch a may attack on Romania while standing firm in Poland or perhaps make limited attacks to improve positions. However, there would be no Hungarian joining in on the attack if only because they could negotiate the return of Transylvannia in exchange for supporting Romania. Exposing their backs to Germany would be pure stupidity. Bulgaria has no reason to support an COmmunist regime in Romania since the Monarchy there would be directly threatened.

                          Plausibility, plausibility, plausibility.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                          • Originally posted by Draco View Post
                            Hungary is much weaker than Romania. If it remains neutral it can only expect to be invaded next or split like Poland was or become the battle ground. All worse alternatives than recovering the territory it had recently lost from a neighbor being steamrolled and joining the allies against Germany. Yugoslavia is in a similar situation. It has to take sides or be invaded or become the battle ground. If it stays neutral it will be the battle ground. If it takes sides with Germany, it will have to fight Britain, it will have no oil and little armament, since German industry is much smaller than British and Soviet industry. If it joins the allies it will receive British and Soviet armament, oil, munitions, etc, and be on the side of a massove army and navy fighting a surrounded, isolated Germany.
                            I'd say given Stalin's track record that Hungary loses as an ally of the Soviet or as a neutral. Stalin wouldn't give the Hungarians equipment to improve their army. He'd demand that Hungary allow large blocks of Soviet troops to be garrisoned in that country for "defense purposes" just as he did with Finland (who said no and went to war), the Baltic states who allowed it and then were occupied and in sham elections a pro-Soviet government installed by force who then dismantled all opposition, Iran where the Soviets really were forced to leave following the war, Poland, and elsewhere once the war ended.
                            Tito in Yugoslavia wouldn't allow the Soviets into the country and remained neutral following WW 2 for exactly that reason. He knew they got in they'd take over.
                            Those nations are far better off trying to stay neutral and then joining the Germans once the Red Army begins to disintegrate under a German counter offensive.
                            From the viewpoint of 1940 Germany would look like a winner. The Soviets are bogged down fighting in Romania. France has surrendered. Britain is all but beaten. The Germans are turning East and kicking the living $h!+ out of the Red Army in a repeat of WW 1's Tannenburg.

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                            • Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                              The biggest flaw in this totaly implausible scenario is that it asks Hungary, which directly borders Hitler's reich to march east and south while 80 odd German divisions are available to counter any moves against Romania. Germany could easily sit on the defensive in Poland and march on Budapest within week. Very shortly the Hungarian government would be changed and the Hungarian army turning on the Soveit forces.

                              Hungary can keep Transylvania and is now an axis allied. Yugoslavia would then join the axis along with Bulgaria and possibly Greece.

                              It cannot be stressed enough how anti-Communist these governments were. The entire reason Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria joined the axis was to gain protection from Soviet expansion into the Balkans. Yugoslavia was also headed in that direction and at best would have remained a pro-axis neutral but for the coup. The Soviet attack would push them into the axis camp.

                              None of the Balkan states were run by fools, they may not have shared the Nazis racial policies and ideologies but they all shared a fear of the Stalinist regime in the USSR.

                              At best the USSR might launch a may attack on Romania while standing firm in Poland or perhaps make limited attacks to improve positions. However, there would be no Hungarian joining in on the attack if only because they could negotiate the return of Transylvannia in exchange for supporting Romania. Exposing their backs to Germany would be pure stupidity. Bulgaria has no reason to support an COmmunist regime in Romania since the Monarchy there would be directly threatened.

                              Plausibility, plausibility, plausibility.
                              In 1940 Hungarian Jews feared Germany as much as they feared the USSR (Szilard and rich Jews left Hungary for the US, etc,).

                              You assume that Hungary is much more likely to join Germany (which at the time cannot antagonize the USSR for need of supplies) and to join extremely weak Romania (its historical Nemesis) against 1.5 million Soviets already advancing (at the time allied with Germany and invading their area of influence) than to receive armament, benefit greatly from Romania's demise and in case of war between the USSR and Germany remove the battlefield to Transylvania instead of Budapest.
                              I think Hungary is much more likely to join Hitler's ally and benefit greatly than to antagonize it or remain neutral and be invaded or split or become the battle ground.

                              Hungary's situation is remotely akin to that of Thailand in Dec 1941. When Japan invaded Malaya, it also invaded a small area of Thailand. Thailand became Japan's ally (antagonizing the US, Britain, India, Burma, etc,), received land in Malaya captured by the Japanese and then fought with Japan in Burma and west China and gained more territory. All that despite Japan using only about 100,000 troops, 200 tanks and 700 planes in the area.
                              With 1.5 million Soviets, thousands of tanks, planes, etc, already advancing nextdoor to Hungary an offer to join and benefit is much more likely to be accepted than refused.

                              I think Hitler would encourage Hungary to occupy as much ground as possible (hopefully including Ploesti), if only to keep the USSR from occupying that territory.
                              Last edited by Draco; 11 Sep 14, 12:17.

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                              • Originally posted by Draco View Post
                                Hungary's situation is remotely akin to that of Thailand in Dec 1941. When Japan invaded Malaya, it also invaded a small area of Thailand. Thailand became Japan's ally (antagonizing the US, Britain, India, Burma, etc,), received land in Malaya captured by the Japanese and then fought with Japan in Burma and west China and gained more territory. All that despite Japan using only about 100,000 troops, 200 tanks and 700 planes in the area.
                                With 1.5 million Soviets, thousands of tanks, planes, etc, already advancing nextdoor to Hungary an offer to join and benefit is much more likely to be accepted than refused.
                                The difference is that Japan was, at least initially, viewed positively as a liberator who'd help rid the area of European influence. The SU was viewed as the enemy by these countries you so cavalierly recruit.
                                Diadochi Rising Wargame:
                                King Pairisades I of the Bosporan Kingdom

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