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  • Germany gets a 5 year tech bost.

    Not 100% if this is the right section for this type of what if.

    It is December 31st 1938, Hitler and his government have been paid a visit by a random omnipotent being (or ROB). He tells them that history records they went to war and it did not go well for them, so here's the technology they would be producing some 5 years from now to help them out. Also they would be receiving all the documentation, tools and hardware needed to build them (so all they would need to do is put the tools into place and get to work). And that these items would be coming the next day. They also get the research data on all experimental projects, and manufacturing data if available.

    The items provided are what ever is in production as of August 1944, as well as all projects at that time.

    Basically Germany now has the ability to produce what ever it wants to that was in production in August of 1944 in January 1939. Assuming the Germans noticed the advantages they have been given and it's potential benefits for them. What would the use? How would things go down for them? How dose this change the war?

    Some examples say by October of 1939 the Germans have replaced all current tank production in favor of the Panther Ausf G and they have say about 600 of them available by April of 1940.

    How would the Battle of Britain play out if the Germans have Me-109K-4s and Fw-190 A8s and D9s available in numbers, or even Me-262s, and not to mention He-177s and Ju-388s.

    How would the War of the Atlantic turn out if the type 21 U-boats where available in some numbers by mid 1941?


    Also a sort of secondary situation. How much of a help would it be if Germany some how managed to get twice the fuel and 50% more resources (i.e. Steel, Iron, Tungsten, ect) than it had procured historically (basically if they produced one ton they get 1.5 tons (or two tons for fuel)).
    Last edited by Nebfer; 14 Aug 11, 21:27.

  • #2
    Germany gets a 5 year tech bost.
    Perhaps they should 'with all that tech' have invented a QWERTY keyboard where the letter 'o' could be used twice in a row.

    Paul
    ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
    All human ills he can subdue,
    Or with a bauble or medal
    Can win mans heart for you;
    And many a blessing know to stew
    To make a megloamaniac bright;
    Give honour to the dainty Corse,
    The Pixie is a little shite.

    Comment


    • #3
      In alternate history geek speak, we refer to this phenomena as Alien Space Bats. It is not a compliment to have your premise called ASB if you didn't mean it that way.

      Germany will still have no way to invade Britain. Germany lacks the navy and air cover plus the transports to occupy the UK. The BoB is all about politics, about scaring the UK into an armistice, and that could have been done with 1940 tech. With 1943 tech it's more likely, but still might peter out.

      The most important thing Hitler will glean for the ASB is nothing technological. It is the fact that Britain will likely continue the war for years. If he's smart and the syphilis hasn't kicked in, the Navy will develop more blockade running ships and subs to bring in vitally needed materials such as precious metals for alloys (tin, chromium, copper), rubber, oil and maybe even foodstuffs. It may also get Hitler to play the end of Barbarossa more conservatively. If he knows an assault on Moscow will fail in the winter, he won't do it, and let the Wehrmacht entrench and not overextend itself. This is ominous to the fate of the USSR for two reasons, one political, the other strategic.
      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

      Comment


      • #4
        If he is told how the war plays out in detail and he believes it, then that alone is more important than the technology. It will mean that Germany won't make the same horrible mistakes they did in the OTL.
        A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

        Comment


        • #5
          Does this mean they will make NEW and EXCITING horrible mistakes instead?

          Comment


          • #6
            I call firsts! Dibs on the tinfoil hat concession for this one!

            Regards,
            Dennis
            If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

            Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
              I call firsts! Dibs on the tinfoil hat concession for this one!

              Regards,
              Dennis
              You know Dennis, always be quality concious in your new business endeavor, because the more tinfoil you use for your hats, the more it wards off alien electronic space rays from entering one's brain.
              "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Wolery View Post
                In alternate history geek speak, we refer to this phenomena as Alien Space Bats. It is not a compliment to have your premise called ASB if you didn't mean it that way.

                Germany will still have no way to invade Britain. Germany lacks the navy and air cover plus the transports to occupy the UK. The BoB is all about politics, about scaring the UK into an armistice, and that could have been done with 1940 tech. With 1943 tech it's more likely, but still might peter out.

                The most important thing Hitler will glean for the ASB is nothing technological. It is the fact that Britain will likely continue the war for years. If he's smart and the syphilis hasn't kicked in, the Navy will develop more blockade running ships and subs to bring in vitally needed materials such as precious metals for alloys (tin, chromium, copper), rubber, oil and maybe even foodstuffs. It may also get Hitler to play the end of Barbarossa more conservatively. If he knows an assault on Moscow will fail in the winter, he won't do it, and let the Wehrmacht entrench and not overextend itself. This is ominous to the fate of the USSR for two reasons, one political, the other strategic.
                Just a curious situation of ASB, just looking at some of the technologies that the Germans would have available in 1939

                Aircraft

                Arado Ar-234 Blitz Jet Bomber
                Dornier Do-335 Pfeil Heavy Fighter
                Focke-Wulf Fw-190D (incl Kurt Tank Ta-152) Fighters
                Gotha Go-244 Troop Transports
                Heinkel He-277 Strategic Heavy Bomber
                Heinkel He-219 Uhu Heavy Night Fighter
                Junkers Ju-188, 288 and 388. (all variants)
                Junker Ju-290B-1 Strategic Heavy Bomber
                Messerschmitt Me-410 Heavy Fighter.
                Messerschmitt Bf-109G-14/U4 Fighter (with drop tanks)
                Messerschmitt Me-262 Jet Fighter
                Messerschmitt Me-264 Strategic Heavy Bomber (with all the bugs eliminatd)
                Messerschmitt Me-323 Gigant Heavy Transport (Inc He-111Z Tug)

                Then we have these Beauties

                V-1 Buzz Bombs
                V-2 Ballistic Missiles

                Tanks

                Pz Kpfw-III N (75mm short barrel gun version)
                Pz Kpfw-IV F, G, H and J (long barrel 75mm gun version)
                Pz Kpfw-V Ausf G Panther (inc retrofitting of all other variants to Ausf G standard.
                Pz Kpfw-VI Tiger (all varieties)
                Pz Kpfw-VII King Tiger (All Varieties)

                Tank Destroyers

                Sdkfz-131, 132, 138 Marder Family
                Skdfz-142 Stug III
                Skdfz-142/1 Stug IV (Tank Destroyer/Assault Gun)
                Skdfz-162 Jagdpanzer
                Skdfz-164 Nashorn
                Skdfz-173 Jagdpanther
                Skdfz-186 Jagdtiger

                Then we have the Germans as the OP suggest 5 years in adavance of Atomic research, Radar technologies.

                With the information Germany knows how to preserve ships during the Norwegian Campaign. While causng maximum losses against the RN, not only this but Germany would pocess all the RN codes and safeguard their own codes, causing the British to be deaf to German messages, keeping one or two steps ahead. Also a dedicated attack on Bletchly Park to kill off the code boffins.

                Interestingly the information gained would allow the Luftwaffe to connect that Radar was vital for the defense of Britain and to connect it with RAF Fighter Command early warning systems, this information would allow the Luftwaffe to knock out the Radar from day one instead of the stupid decision to attack shipping, this foreknowledge would be of great assistance to the Luftwaffe.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
                  If he is told how the war plays out in detail and he believes it, then that alone is more important than the technology. It will mean that Germany won't make the same horrible mistakes they did in the OTL.
                  Well I should probably specified, He is told that it went badly but not given much in the way of details.

                  something along the lines of historically you went to war, and dispute of your technology, you eventually lost the war due to a few reasons (like economic, and military), to give you a better chance at winning, here's the technology you had at the last parts of that war, and the means to build them, and all the research documents for the next wave of equipment after them.

                  With perhaps some resource improvements, as I listed in the op.

                  Originally posted by Dibble201Bty View Post
                  Perhaps they should 'with all that tech' have invented a QWERTY keyboard where the letter 'o' could be used twice in a row.

                  Paul
                  I do not think a QWERTY key board would of helped a spelling error, it's not my strong point... So I will have a lot of little errors, so get used to them. Particularly if the spell check misses them.


                  Edit:
                  Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                  Just a curious situation of ASB, just looking at some of the technologies that the Germans would have available in 1939

                  Aircraft

                  Arado Ar-234 Blitz Jet Bomber
                  Dornier Do-335 Pfeil Heavy Fighter
                  Focke-Wulf Fw-190D (incl Kurt Tank Ta-152) Fighters
                  Gotha Go-244 Troop Transports
                  Heinkel He-277 Strategic Heavy Bomber
                  Heinkel He-219 Uhu Heavy Night Fighter
                  Junkers Ju-188, 288 and 388. (all variants)
                  Junker Ju-290B-1 Strategic Heavy Bomber
                  Messerschmitt Me-410 Heavy Fighter.
                  Messerschmitt Bf-109G-14/U4 Fighter (with drop tanks)
                  Messerschmitt Me-262 Jet Fighter
                  Messerschmitt Me-264 Strategic Heavy Bomber (with all the bugs eliminatd)
                  Messerschmitt Me-323 Gigant Heavy Transport (Inc He-111Z Tug)

                  Then we have these Beauties

                  V-1 Buzz Bombs
                  V-2 Ballistic Missiles

                  Tanks

                  Pz Kpfw-III N (75mm short barrel gun version)
                  Pz Kpfw-IV F, G, H and J (long barrel 75mm gun version)
                  Pz Kpfw-V Ausf G Panther (inc retrofitting of all other variants to Ausf G standard.
                  Pz Kpfw-VI Tiger (all varieties)
                  Pz Kpfw-VII King Tiger (All Varieties)

                  Tank Destroyers

                  Sdkfz-131, 132, 138 Marder Family
                  Skdfz-142 Stug III
                  Skdfz-142/1 Stug IV (Tank Destroyer/Assault Gun)
                  Skdfz-162 Jagdpanzer
                  Skdfz-164 Nashorn
                  Skdfz-173 Jagdpanther
                  Skdfz-186 Jagdtiger
                  Well only technology they have that's in production (as of August 1944) or in R&D do they get. So no Panzer IV Ausf Gs or even Tiger Is.

                  For infantry weapons they get
                  G-43 Rifles
                  STG-44
                  MG-42
                  Panzerfaust (The klein and the 30, the "60" was introduced in September, though it's possible it was in production in August...).
                  Panzerschreck

                  They might also get that IR sight that the STG-44 could get, but I have no idea when it went into production, though I have heard early 1944.
                  Last edited by Nebfer; 14 Aug 11, 21:40.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
                    Well I should probably specified, He is told that it went badly but not given much in the way of details.

                    something along the lines of historically you went to war, and dispute of your technology, you eventually lost the war due to a few reasons (like economic, and military), to give you a better chance at winning, here's the technology you had at the last parts of that war, and the means to build them, and all the research documents for the next wave of equipment after them.

                    With perhaps some resource improvements, as I listed in the op.


                    I do not think a QWERTY key board would of helped a spelling error, it's not my strong point... So I will have a lot of little errors, so get used to them. Particularly if the spell check misses them.


                    Edit:


                    Well only technology they have that's in production (as of August 1944) or in R&D do they get. So no Panzer IV Ausf Gs or even Tiger Is.

                    For infantry weapons they get
                    G-43 Rifles
                    STG-44
                    MG-42
                    Panzerfaust (The klein and the 30, the "60" was introduced in September, though it's possible it was in production in August...).
                    Panzerschreck

                    They might also get that IR sight that the STG-44 could get, but I have no idea when it went into production, though I have heard early 1944.
                    Wikipedia quotes that the first King Tiger was produced in prototype form in November 1943, do we count that, although serious produduction would not occur until September 1944, i am of the opinion that if it exists at August 1944 then the King Tiger makes the cut off time. Again Wikipedia clearly states that the Panzer Ausf G is in production as of May 1942 to June 1943, the Panzer Ausf H then went into production from April 1943 this version was the best of the lot.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
                      Germany gets a 5 year tech bost.
                      Perhaps they should 'with all that tech' have invented a QWERTY keyboard where the letter 'o' could be used twice in a row.

                      Paul
                      Originally posted by Nebfer View Post
                      I do not think a QWERTY key board would of helped a spelling error, it's not my strong point... So I will have a lot of little errors, so get used to them. Particularly if the spell check misses them.
                      Oh I am sorry! I thought that with all that advanced German 'tech' we would have lost the war and the outcome would be that this site would be called 'Sessel allgemeinen'.

                      Lo*k! again I am sorry, and to make up for this I will send you a rep as so*n as I can

                      Paul
                      ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                      All human ills he can subdue,
                      Or with a bauble or medal
                      Can win mans heart for you;
                      And many a blessing know to stew
                      To make a megloamaniac bright;
                      Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                      The Pixie is a little shite.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just 'cos they got the blueprints doesn't mean they've got the factories. Some changes will require minimal adjustments, such as fitting larger cannon to the Bf-109 (or Me-109 if you like), but others will require complete retooling, such as the PaK/Kwk40 7.5cm for the Pz IV, to complete new factories for the Me 262. Then there is expansion of the industrial capacity needed to produce all these goodies. But the biggest constraint will be money - all this new kit will have to be paid for and not accumulated over several years. So unless the ASBs have some serious wedge, the Wehrmacht leaps forward maybe 6 months.

                        Maybe Hitler should ask for indestructible horses instead.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                          Just 'cos they got the blueprints doesn't mean they've got the factories. Some changes will require minimal adjustments, such as fitting larger cannon to the Bf-109 (or Me-109 if you like), but others will require complete retooling, such as the PaK/Kwk40 7.5cm for the Pz IV, to complete new factories for the Me 262. Then there is expansion of the industrial capacity needed to produce all these goodies. But the biggest constraint will be money - all this new kit will have to be paid for and not accumulated over several years. So unless the ASBs have some serious wedge, the Wehrmacht leaps forward maybe 6 months.

                          Maybe Hitler should ask for indestructible horses instead.
                          I think that the OP covers this with the mention that Germany has the means to build whatever it wants, i take that to mean that it has the industrial capacity to cover your concerns.

                          So Germany has the blueprints, factories and manpower. So whatever the Germans had in production of August 1944 plus all current projects.

                          I also suspect that this means that the OKW had all the men in needed to go to war with all of these new technologies.

                          But even with all that, it still means nothing, if Hitler is Hitler and makes the same mistakes, so the OP suggests that Hitler is told that he goes to war and loses, here is an addition that the ROB's of the ASB's hands over doccumentation of how WW2 played out. Hitler is shown how he cost Germany the war. If Hitler is shown doccumentation of his failure as leader but in this Hitler accepts the ROB's of the ASB's and fully comprehends the information given Hitler realises that he has been given a second chance before he blew his first chance.
                          Last edited by Roddoss72; 15 Aug 11, 08:28.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                            I think that the OP covers this with the mention that Germany has the means to build whatever it wants, i take that to mean that it has the industrial capacity to cover your concerns.

                            So Germany has the blueprints, factories and manpower. So whatever the Germans had in production of August 1944 plus all current projects.

                            I also suspect that this means that the OKW had all the men in needed to go to war with all of these new technologies.

                            But even with all that, it still means nothing, if Hitler is Hitler and makes the same mistakes, so the OP suggests that Hitler is told that he goes to war and loses, here is an addition that the ROB's of the ASB's hands over doccumentation of how WW2 played out. Hitler is shown how he cost Germany the war. If Hitler is shown doccumentation of his failure as leader but in this Hitler accepts the ROB's of the ASB's and fully comprehends the information given Hitler realises that he has been given a second chance before he blew his first chance.
                            I took it to mean they had the plans but not necessarily the industrial capacity. Germany's industrial base grew over a series of 4 year plans with the result that the Allies were fighting a much bigger industrial Germany in 1944 compared with 1939. Why do you think Speer got the reputation for being a worker of wonders? Like almost all politicians, he took the credit for the successful policies of his predecessors. It was also based on imported and slave labour.

                            But I can't see Hitler stepping aside from his delusional plans.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                              Wikipedia quotes that the first King Tiger was produced in prototype form in November 1943, do we count that, although serious produduction would not occur until September 1944, i am of the opinion that if it exists at August 1944 then the King Tiger makes the cut off time. Again Wikipedia clearly states that the Panzer Ausf G is in production as of May 1942 to June 1943, the Panzer Ausf H then went into production from April 1943 this version was the best of the lot.
                              Yes if it's in mass production in August then they get the plans the documentation and the tools to build them.

                              Though I'm tempted to give a single exception for the Panzer IV Ausf H over the J...

                              ------------------------
                              It works like this
                              1. The Fuhrer and company is told that their getting "aid" and some basic reasons why... Basically just enough info to get him to get over the why should I use these when what I got right now works fine.
                              2. The next day they get all the tools, plans and documentation to build anything that is in series production in August 1944, so all they have to do is, At the lest they have all the tools to start building them if not the floor space. At the same time they get the R&D documentation for items in development during the same time frame (what ever is in R&D in August 1944 is what they get).
                              3. As an added bonus they also get 50% more raw materials than they got in the first place, and twice the amount of oil as well. So if they procured historically 1,000 tons of oil in say June of 1040 then they would get 2,000 here. likewise if they mined 1,000 tons of Iron in the same time frame then they would get 1,500 tons.

                              It might take them a bit to get the new factory "tools" in order, and train the workers on them, as well as getting the research staff up to speed on all the new stuff they get.

                              Comment

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