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WW1 won by Germany in 1914

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  • WW1 won by Germany in 1914

    OK, assume Germans had reinforced the right and seized Paris in early septemeber 1914.

    - France asks for an armistice
    - Britain and France and Russia / Germany and Austro-hungary on peace table in Geneva, Switzerland, accept that France and Serbia will pay a war compensation. France will cede a few colonies (Tunisia? ivory Coast)) to Germany. Serbia cedes all rights to Bosnia-Hercegoina.
    - France has to pay Belgium for war cost - no belgium territory lost to Germany.

    no millions dead (almost), no West front quagmire, no Ottoman dismemberment, (no British/French peace in the middle east?), no US/Italian intervention in the War, no Nazism (and therefore no Holocaust and thus no Israel)

    what would the world evolve into?

    - expansion of Germany into Caribbean (as some US Naby planners thought)?

    - German-style social democratic european - Union in the 1920's or 30's

    - no communism in Russia?

    - no third world "emancipation" and de-colonization movements?

    and for wargamers's sake:

    what wars would come out...
    Last edited by piero1971; 10 Sep 04, 16:21.
    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

  • #2
    Piero1971, please do not use expletives in your postings as this is contrary to the stated Policy here. I have edited your post acordingly.

    Thanks.

    Dr. S.
    Last edited by Doctor Sinister; 10 Sep 04, 15:56.
    Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

    www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

    www.tabletown.co.uk

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    • #3
      hi - new to these merged forums

      what is an expletive?
      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by piero1971
        what is an expletive?
        I would define an expletive as any word which is potentially offensive or rude to other Members or that other Members might regard as profane.

        It's just that we have some youngsters who frequent these Forums and we just want to keep it as clean as we can.

        Thanks for your understanding!

        Dr. S.
        Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

        www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

        www.tabletown.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by piero1971
          OK, assume Germans had reinforced the right and seized Paris in early septemeber 1914.

          - France asks for an armistice
          - Britain and France and Russia / Germany and Austro-hungary on peace table in Geneva, Switzerland, accept that France and Serbia will pay a war compensation. France will cede a few colonies (Tunisia? ivory Coast)) to Germany. Serbia cedes all rights to Bosnia-Hercegoina.
          - France has to pay Belgium for war cost - no belgium territory lost to Germany.

          no millions dead (almost), no West front quagmire, no Ottoman dismemberment, (no British/French peace in the middle east?), no US/Italian intervention in the War, no Nazism (and therefore no Holocaust and thus no Israel)

          what would the world evolve into?

          - expansion of Germany into Caribbean (as some US Naby planners thought)?

          - German-style social democratic european - Union in the 1920's or 30's

          - no communism in Russia?

          - no third world "emancipation" and de-colonization movements?

          and for wargamers's sake:

          what wars would come out...
          Anyway, getting back to the topic, I'm of the view that if the "original" WWI had been truncated as you postulate, further conflicts would have been inevitable within no more than ten years after the event.

          Given the European situation at the time, power struggles, rivalries, grudges and scores to settle, we would have ended up with a new global war of some kind just because everybody was itching for a fight and was convinced of their own superiority.

          The question is what kind of a war would it have been - one much like WWI, bogged down in Europe, or one more like WWII, spread much further afield?

          If Russia had not become Communist and with no Nazi Germany there would have been no vast idealogical struggle in the East, so any conflict there would have been of a different flavour. And of course, this war would not benefit from the techoligical advances of "our" WWI - no Tanks for example so this second war would probably have become as stalemated as the original WWI in our own timeline.

          You might find some interesting threads postulating different outcomes of WWI over in the WWI Forum. Here's one that springs to mind:

          http://war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11491

          Regards,

          Dr. S.
          Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

          www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

          www.tabletown.co.uk

          Comment


          • #6
            yep

            thanks for the link.

            understood about the other thing, edited a bit the posts. will comply to the new rules and wash my mouth, err. fingers and keyboard with soap...
            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

            Comment


            • #7
              No worries. Your original thoughts on an alternate timeline were very interesting. WWI isn't my strong point but it's one that's often overlooked for alternate outcomes.

              As for what wargames we would be playing - they might be a bit boring!

              Dr. S.
              Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

              www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

              www.tabletown.co.uk

              Comment


              • #8
                ww1

                Originally posted by Doctor Sinister
                As for what wargames we would be playing - they might be a bit boring!
                well, I designed a WW1 one for TOAW that some enjoy playing with.... no pazer breakthroughs, no daring air raids, but still, the management on an operational scale of assaults can be interestting.

                well, my original question is to make a series of scenarios based on an alternate history, where Germany Won WW1, and perhaps where German forces would battle USA forces (or other world powers) in the Caribbean, Pacfic and Africa, in the 1920's but without the advances in aviation, combat doctrine (still at bataillon level insted of platoon level), no tanks, etc.... but I am still researching it.

                another fun example is a victorious WW1 germany sending a force into Russia in the winter of 1917 to rescue the Kaiser's cousin (Nicholas II) held by the soviets... etc

                piero
                "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                • #9
                  Are there Zeppelins?

                  I like Zeppelins. We had an interesting discussion on Zeppelins ages ago on ACG where we ended up creating an entire alternative history where the Zeppelin ruled the sky and there were massive fleet engagements between Empires.

                  Sorry, I'm digressing. I'm not very familiar with TOAW although I know there are loads of people here for whom it's practically a religion. Your idea sounds great - perhaps you could include an airborne invasion of the UK by Germany using Zeppelins? Oops, there I go again.

                  Does TOAW include Naval combat? Perhaps some period Naval combat in and around the Caribbean islands might be interesting?

                  Dr. S.
                  Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

                  www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

                  www.tabletown.co.uk

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ahhh zepps

                    ahhh, zeppelins.. indeed they should.. as they predated WW1 by a little and to project power overseas, in colonies and as the US did in the 30's zeps should be included in a sort of air-aircraftcarrier, etc.

                    need US supplied helium though....

                    an air invasion - wow, starts to sound like Flash Gordon/the Rocketeer-like stuff....

                    actually, there is a board wargame, Plan Black, that simulates 1920's combat in the Caribbean.. US vs Britain, US vs Germany, etc.
                    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here's the thread where we went off on a tangent about Zeppelins before...

                      http://war-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11999

                      As you can see, we got pretty fanciful with our ideas.

                      Dr. S.
                      Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

                      www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

                      www.tabletown.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Going back to the 'what-if' here

                        Britain would remain as the global superpower since the finances leeched by funding the war would not be lost. Nevertheless with Germany in control of much of the shoreline of the North Sea (as per their stated war aims) and France emasculated (ditto) Britain must reach an 'understanding' with Germany or face an arms race that she may not be able to win. If Russia (and possibly France too) falls to Communism this would be relatively easy, at least in the short term.
                        Signing out.

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                        • #13
                          The question is what would be the outcome for the U.S. We did not come into the picture till 1917 due to the sinking of the Lusitania which was in 1916 I believe. Would we still be an isolationalist country or would we be eventually drawn into the picture?
                          Govenour Of Texas and all southern provinces. Kepper Of The Holy Woodchipper.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JeremyScott
                            The question is what would be the outcome for the U.S. We did not come into the picture till 1917 due to the sinking of the Lusitania which was in 1916 I believe. Would we still be an isolationalist country or would we be eventually drawn into the picture?
                            Lusitania was 1915 and was the incident that caused Germany to cease unrestricted submarine warfare until 1917. It was the resumption which (probably) brought the US into the war.

                            I would see the US remaining 'isolationist' regarding Europe but maybe getting involved in the Pacific? China would also still be unstable with Germany and Britain vying for influence, possibly with the US and Japan?
                            Signing out.

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                            • #15
                              Ok, so France has lost money, land, and prestige in the short WWI (The Franco-German Conflict of 1914?).

                              Now, what would happen to the Franch. Would they go the way of the Germans post WWI and become a far right wing dcitatorship, or far left communist government?

                              Also, there would be no League of Nations. Russia would be either a very crippled puppet monarchy (Germany's Kaiser controlling his relatives in Moscow) or eventualy a communist goverment.

                              If Russia too was a communist Goverment, then the next World War (or the First) could possibly be a US/UK/German/Austrian-Hungarian Alliance vs Russia and France (and perhaps another country, maybe Italy didnt go with Il' Duce).

                              However, past perhaps 1939 or so it becomes very hard to get any clear picture based on facts and it becomes more of whatever your imagination can come up with.

                              PS Doctor S, whatever happened to S.Inc.s Computer Games Division coming up with that Zepplin game? Too many of the programmers get killed by missfiring laser beams?

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