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Teutonic Knights victorious

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  • Teutonic Knights victorious

    Let's say that instead of the battle of the ice lake ending in crushing defeat for the Teutonic Order, it instead ends with Novgorod's army being crushed utterly and Novgorod ends up conquered, and the Knights are given full permission by the Pope to bring the Orthodox heretics into the one true Catholic Church.

    Now let's also say that the Teutonic Knight's war against Poland-Lithuania ends on a much better note for the Teutonic Knights, with the results of their biggest defeats being reversed in their favor; resulting in the smashing of Poland's armies.

    How would this affect history?
    Standing here, I realize you were just like me trying to make history.
    But who's to judge the right from wrong.
    When our guard is down I think we'll both agree.
    That violence breeds violence.
    But in the end it has to be this way.

  • #2
    That's a lot of what ifs. But I guess for one thing there would be no Nevsky Prospekt.
    Кто там?
    Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
    Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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    • #3
      I think this is one of those things that effects history so much its hard to tell what would happen.

      Task Force Regenbogen- Support and Paras

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Dashy View Post
        I think this is one of those things that effects history so much its hard to tell what would happen.

        Yeah, that's what I was getting at too. It is such a broad scope...
        Кто там?
        Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
        Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

        Comment


        • #5
          Hmm, interesting proposition. The real question is whether the Order would expand further or stop where it was. I don't think it was able to swallow the whole Novgorod republic, probably they would've laid siege to some towns which would buy their freedom as Novgorod was rather rich back then. Incidentally, this would've helped Moscow to eventually consolidate the lands around it maybe much earlier than it happened historically: there'll be no Lithuanian threat and with Novgorod pressed to the Teuton thumb it would look like the only beacon of Orthodoxy for the Russians. The Teutons, unlike the Poles/Lithuanians, would be much more indoctrinated Catholics and they would hardly cooperate with the Mongols much.

          Also, the defeat of Poland would have even greater consequences than the strengthening of the order. In the 13th-14th centuries it was the major centre of gravitation for Russian lands and it had serious chances of becoming the "gatherer of all Rus". Their biggest problem was that they were Catholic.
          www.histours.ru

          Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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          • #6
            Didn't the Mongols swallow that whole area up just a few years later?

            Given that, the fighting itself was pointless and harmful to both sides.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
              Didn't the Mongols swallow that whole area up just a few years later?

              Given that, the fighting itself was pointless and harmful to both sides.
              http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/RamTat.html

              The Mongol khans, after having devastated and abased Rus. sia, did not introduce any direct political change. They left to each country her laws, her courts of justice, her natural chiefs. The house of Andrew Bogolioubski continued to reign in Souz.dal, that of Daniel Romanovitch in Galitch and Volhynia, the Olgovitches in Tchernigof, and the descendants of Rogvolod the Varangian at Polotsk. Novgorod might continue to expel and recall her princes, and the dynasties of the South to dispute the throne of Kief. The Russian States found themselves under the Mongol yoke, in much the same situation as that of the Christians of the Greco-Slav peninsula three centuries later, under the Ottomans. The Russians remained in possession of all their lands, which their nomad conquerors, encamped on the steppes of the East and South, disdained. They were, like their Danubian kinsmen, a sort of rayahs, over whom the authority of the khans was exerted with more or less rigor, but whom their conquerors never tried in any way to Tatarize.
              www.histours.ru

              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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              • #8
                Makes the Mongol yoke seem pretty light... but then there were never that many Mongols around to begin with, certainly not enough to colonize the vast lands they took over.

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                • #9
                  No, but the tribute they exacted did almost rob it blind.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                    No, but the tribute they exacted did almost rob it blind.
                    I'm trying to find information on the mongol tax system, but what I do already know is that like the huns before them, the mongols used a system when they were conquering a nation that those who are familiar with the Mafia would recognize immediately; protection rackets. They'd raze one town and leave a few survivors to speak of how bad they were and give the other towns a choice to either be razed as well, or submit and give tribute to the mongols and become part of their empire.

                    The Teutonic Knights on the other hand, I'm sure would be nearly as brutal for entirely different reasons. I cannot see them being kind to the Polish-Lithuanians (many of the latter being pagans) or to the Orthodox Novgorodians. But if they step too far out of line, then the Golden horde that dominated Russia would probably take issue; in a very violent way.
                    Standing here, I realize you were just like me trying to make history.
                    But who's to judge the right from wrong.
                    When our guard is down I think we'll both agree.
                    That violence breeds violence.
                    But in the end it has to be this way.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Czin View Post
                      I'm trying to find information on the mongol tax system, but what I do already know is that like the huns before them, the mongols used a system when they were conquering a nation that those who are familiar with the Mafia would recognize immediately; protection rackets. They'd raze one town and leave a few survivors to speak of how bad they were and give the other towns a choice to either be razed as well, or submit and give tribute to the mongols and become part of their empire.

                      The Teutonic Knights on the other hand, I'm sure would be nearly as brutal for entirely different reasons. I cannot see them being kind to the Polish-Lithuanians (many of the latter being pagans) or to the Orthodox Novgorodians. But if they step too far out of line, then the Golden horde that dominated Russia would probably take issue; in a very violent way.
                      Considering the year and everything, the Teutonic Knights (and the Livonian Brotherhood and the other orders up that way) would have been wiped off the planet. There's a lot of money in churches.

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