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  • #16
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    " The remarkable thing is this, a thing which I am always thinking: how is it that a country like GERMANY, which is situated in the middle of the continent, has not developed politics to an art, in order to maintain peace, a sensible peace,..."

    That is a extremely interesting question. I've seen it asked directly & indirectly many times from the halls of academia, through lowly pop history magazines, to these discussion boards. The answers never seem to dig very deep into the psych of German or 'Western' political culture.

    Bismarck seems to have been the last truly sucessfull forigen policy leader from the German speaking nations until after 1945. Why would this be the case for over sixty years, & does it reflect a wider trend in Europe of globally then?
    Unfortunately the Allies had sewn the seeds of WW2 or as i like to call it WW1 mkII, the day they delivered the Treaty of Versailles, then stripped Germany of her land, especially the Polish Corridor and Danzig, and further south when most of the rich coal mines were handed to Poland, thus further stripping Germany of vital natural recources.

    The rise of Hitler and his manifesto and his writings of Mein Kampf in Landsberg Prison (This part still happens) points his rage at the Communists not the Jews, and the west that tacitly support communism, also in this the concept of Racial purity is not part of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party.

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    • #17
      Yep

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      • #18
        " The remarkable thing is this, a thing which I am always thinking: how is it that a country like GERMANY, which is situated in the middle of the continent, has not developed politics to an art, in order to maintain peace, a sensible peace,..."

        That is a extremely interesting question. I've seen it asked directly & indirectly many times from the halls of academia, through lowly pop history magazines, to these discussion boards. The answers never seem to dig very deep into the psych of German or 'Western' political culture.

        Bismarck seems to have been the last truly sucessfull forigen policy leader from the German speaking nations until after 1945. Why would this be the case for over sixty years, & does it reflect a wider trend in Europe or globally in that era?
        Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 14 Feb 11, 23:30.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
          Unfortunately the Allies had sewn the seeds of WW2 or as i like to call it WW1 mkII, the day they delivered the Treaty of Versailles, then stripped Germany of her land, especially the Polish Corridor and Danzig, and further south when most of the rich coal mines were handed to Poland, thus further stripping Germany of vital natural recources.

          The rise of Hitler and his manifesto and his writings of Mein Kampf in Landsberg Prison (This part still happens) points his rage at the Communists not the Jews, and the west that tacitly support communism, also in this the concept of Racial purity is not part of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party.
          The trick here is Hitlers racial views went beyond Jews. The idea of Aryan superiority went across all races. Excluding the Jews as a racial group & a enemy does not automatically preclude the rest of Hitlers racial baggage. Eliminate all the racial components of nazi ideology and you are left with the sort of socialist/nationalist/anti communist platform that made up Facism in Italy. I unsure only anti Communism would be enough to garner Hitler the sort of support he got with his racial ideology bringing folks who did not give a damm about communists. There were anti communist groups across Europe, but few to none generated the sort of fire that the nazi racial rhetoric did.

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          • #20
            Hitler really only got traction when he took National socialism out to the small towns and the farmers. If it weren't for them he'd have been small fry - a "me too" party.

            But the Nazis, once in power, made the Communists look like amateurs when it came to stripping the rights of the citizens away.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
              " The remarkable thing is this, a thing which I am always thinking: how is it that a country like GERMANY, which is situated in the middle of the continent, has not developed politics to an art, in order to maintain peace, a sensible peace,..."
              There are a couple of useful pointers in relation to the Versailles Treaty on this thread. Firstly, the War Guilt Clause. Was Germany really 100% responsible for causing WW1? No, I don't think so. Two opposing alliances, The Triple Entente and the Triple Alliance. Princip's fatal shots started a domino effect.

              Secondly, War reparations. Unreasonable? Could the allies realistically expect Germany to part with so much money? It's little wonder that Stresseman got it wrong when he started printing high denomination notes. False economy.

              I might well ask, "What if there had never been a Wall Street Crash and a Great Depression?" The Dawes Plan would've remained intact. American financial aid was in place to bolster a fragile German democracy and from what I've learned about European history - to stop Germany falling to the grip of Communism.
              Hitler played Golf. His bunker shot was a hole in one.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sign&Print Name View Post
                .....

                I might well ask, "What if there had never been a Wall Street Crash and a Great Depression?" The Dawes Plan would've remained intact. American financial aid was in place to bolster a fragile German democracy and from what I've learned about European history - to stop Germany falling to the grip of Communism.
                Or if US leaders had rejected the Versailles Treaty earlier on in the 1920s and worked out a accomodation with the Germans several years before the 1929 crash. Such a policy would have estranged the US with France & Britain to some extent & ultimately created a entirely different course in European & global politics.

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                • #23
                  We can look at this another way. "What if Hitler, seeing himself as German, went to live in Germany and not as something of a "hobo" in Vienna? Apparently, it was the "in-thing" for the Viennese to be anti-Semitic. I'm not defending or glorifying Hitler but Vienna society certainly was a bad influence. Hitler actually admitted,

                  "In Austria I hated the motely collection of Czechs, Ruthenians, Poles, Hungarians, Serbs, Croats and above all that ever-present fungoid growth-Jews...I became a fanatical anti-Semite."

                  Did the German government really know what they were letting themselves in for when they recruited Hitler to spy on Drexler's party? I wonder if it was accident or design.
                  Hitler played Golf. His bunker shot was a hole in one.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                    Unfortunately the Allies had sewn the seeds of WW2 or as i like to call it WW1 mkII, the day they delivered the Treaty of Versailles, then stripped Germany of her land, especially the Polish Corridor and Danzig, and further south when most of the rich coal mines were handed to Poland, thus further stripping Germany of vital natural recources.

                    The rise of Hitler and his manifesto and his writings of Mein Kampf in Landsberg Prison (This part still happens) points his rage at the Communists not the Jews, and the west that tacitly support communism, also in this the concept of Racial purity is not part of the Nationalist Socialist German Workers Party.
                    What Part of the bolded highlight did you not understand

                    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                    The trick here is Hitlers racial views went beyond Jews. The idea of Aryan superiority went across all races. Excluding the Jews as a racial group & a enemy does not automatically preclude the rest of Hitlers racial baggage. Eliminate all the racial components of nazi ideology and you are left with the sort of socialist/nationalist/anti communist platform that made up Facism in Italy. I unsure only anti Communism would be enough to garner Hitler the sort of support he got with his racial ideology bringing folks who did not give a damm about communists. There were anti communist groups across Europe, but few to none generated the sort of fire that the nazi racial rhetoric did.

                    I'll say it agian, Hitler does not give a damn over a persons racial background, if you come over to this concept than good, then add but if not, deal with it

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sign&Print Name View Post
                      We can look at this another way. "What if Hitler, seeing himself as German, went to live in Germany and not as something of a "hobo" in Vienna? Apparently, it was the "in-thing" for the Viennese to be anti-Semitic. I'm not defending or glorifying Hitler but Vienna society certainly was a bad influence. Hitler actually admitted,

                      "In Austria I hated the motely collection of Czechs, Ruthenians, Poles, Hungarians, Serbs, Croats and above all that ever-present fungoid growth-Jews...I became a fanatical anti-Semite."

                      Did the German government really know what they were letting themselves in for when they recruited Hitler to spy on Drexler's party? I wonder if it was accident or design.
                      Again someone who doesn't get the original concept of the whole scenario, Hitler is not a racist. So his life still plays out as in the OTL but RACE is not a factor.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                        Or if US leaders had rejected the Versailles Treaty earlier on in the 1920s and worked out a accomodation with the Germans several years before the 1929 crash. Such a policy would have estranged the US with France & Britain to some extent & ultimately created a entirely different course in European & global politics.
                        Not in my original post, Versailles is played out as per OTL and the consquences that fall afterwards. It was in this that the Nazis used this as pointing out that Germany's plight is orchestrated by the Communist sympathetic West.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sign&Print Name View Post
                          There are a couple of useful pointers in relation to the Versailles Treaty on this thread. Firstly, the War Guilt Clause. Was Germany really 100% responsible for causing WW1? No, I don't think so. Two opposing alliances, The Triple Entente and the Triple Alliance. Princip's fatal shots started a domino effect.

                          Secondly, War reparations. Unreasonable? Could the allies realistically expect Germany to part with so much money? It's little wonder that Stresseman got it wrong when he started printing high denomination notes. False economy.

                          I might well ask, "What if there had never been a Wall Street Crash and a Great Depression?" The Dawes Plan would've remained intact. American financial aid was in place to bolster a fragile German democracy and from what I've learned about European history - to stop Germany falling to the grip of Communism.
                          No, the war started because Britain gave the Kingdom of Serbia a war guarantee, just like they did a week prior to Poland, it was signed sealed and delivered. And so when the Austro-Hungarians marched into Serbia, Britain had no choice but to declare war on Austro-Hungarian Empire.

                          The Reason Britian gave a war guarantee to Poland is because Chamberlain was embarrassed, he was made out to be a fool, around the 24th August the British gave the Poles a War Guarantee.

                          On both occassions Britain was the first nation to declare war on both the Austro-Hungarians in 1914 and Germany in 1939, it was Britains War Guarantees that started WW1 and WW2.

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