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No Crystal Nacht.

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  • No Crystal Nacht.

    A meeting begins of some gathered members in a beer hall of a very small German Workers Party. For over the next half an hour Anton Drexler rants and rages about anti-semitism and saying that they sold out the German people in the War, finally a voice speaks up, the group of German Workers Party look around at towards the unknown interloper. Anton Drexler is some how taken aback and asks what the interloper said. Looking rather nervous the interloper gets up and for a few minutes stumbles with his words.

    The gathering, dismiss this petulent individual and turn their back on the man. Then the interloper explodes, he thumps the table where he is standing and for the next hour the interloper demolishes the idea that the Jews were responable for the German and Austro-Hunharian loss of the war, by now the group are enthralled by the voracity of his argument, suddenly Anton Dresler interupts and asks who were those responsible for the Loss, the interloper directs his venom towards the Communists.

    And on the 12th September 1919 a young Adolf Hitler joins the DAP, and with the rise to power the NSDAP is anti-communist but not anti-semetic, Jews join the Party.

    My question is this what would have happened had the Nazi Party gone down the path of actively recruiting Jews and other ethnic minorities into it's ranks, and that a holocaust against Jew had not happened.

  • #2
    When he took over as Feurer he would have not signed a pact with Stalin . That may have brought Russia into the war a lot sooner on the allied side

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    • #3
      I thought the Communists were blamed for Germany's problems too?
      A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Yankee View Post
        When he took over as Feurer he would have not signed a pact with Stalin . That may have brought Russia into the war a lot sooner on the allied side
        Maybe not, the M-T pact was needed by both sides so i don't see anything changing here.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
          I thought the Communists were blamed for Germany's problems too?
          To a lesser extent, i may be wrong but the Nazis blamed Communists infiltrating the HSF and it was them that rebelled first, they were the ones that refused to sail and then the rot set in.

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          • #6
            I really don't see much different happening except blackmail potential for senior Nazis is reduced and Heydrich doesn't change his grandmothers headstone.
            Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

            That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Rojik View Post
              I really don't see much different happening except blackmail potential for senior Nazis is reduced and Heydrich doesn't change his grandmothers headstone.
              Do you understand the concept of that the Nazis in this timeline are not anti-semetic. In this timeline Jews actively join the Nazi Party. So in response so called Jewish heritage of Reinhardt Heydrich is not an issue.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                Do you understand the concept of that the Nazis in this timeline are not anti-semetic. In this timeline Jews actively join the Nazi Party. So in response so called Jewish heritage of Reinhardt Heydrich is not an issue.
                But Hitler wasn't the only reason the Nazis were antisemetic. And I don't see as to why Drexler would harp on about this, and most of the people he was speaking to would not be swayed in their beliefs.

                And wasn't Drexler in the Thule Society at this time? I don't think he is going to be caring all that much about antisemitism.
                Кто там?
                Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                Tunis is a Carthigenian city!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
                  But Hitler wasn't the only reason the Nazis were antisemetic. And I don't see as to why Drexler would harp on about this, and most of the people he was speaking to would not be swayed in their beliefs.

                  And wasn't Drexler in the Thule Society at this time? I don't think he is going to be caring all that much about antisemitism.
                  In this timeline Hitler's rage is against the Communists not the Jews, although some of the DAP are anti-semetic i grant you, but after what Hitler says, they are convinced that the Jews aren't the enemy it is Communism.

                  Now i have gone and had a look at the Thule Society and indeed Drexler was a Member, he facilitated the bringing together of the Thule Society and the DAP. Although this took place in the OTL and would have to happen here as well the many POD would be Hitlers arrival on the scene.

                  But the Thule Society did belive that one day a prophet would one day come and deliver them direction. Adolf Hitler was at the right place at the right time, and with their beliefs the Thule Society and the DAP saw in their midst their Prophet.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                    Do you understand the concept of that the Nazis in this timeline are not anti-semetic. In this timeline Jews actively join the Nazi Party. So in response so called Jewish heritage of Reinhardt Heydrich is not an issue.
                    I dunno - do I? A better question might be to ask if you read and comprehend English?
                    Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                    That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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                    • #11
                      From the start Hitler conflated Bolshivism & the Jewish Conspiricy. Dropping the Jewish part allows the nazis to concentrate on their other 'enemies including the communists. Neither does dropping the Jews from the list preclude the theories of Aryan superiority over the Untermench. By labeling Jewish affiliation a religion rather than a race German ancestored Jews become credentialed Aryans. (Tough luck Rom, you still go to the 'camps'.)

                      Now where this becomes interesting is that Germanys internal economy is not disrupted by the Nuremberg Laws & the subsequent seizure of Jewish property ect... Neither does Germany lose a significant percentage of its educated population. Thats all good when attempting to wring some degree of efficiency out of the economy and industrial plant.

                      On the down side the 'courser' sort of Jews would be along side the nazi kleptocrats in looting whatever power allowed.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                        I dunno - do I? A better question might be to ask if you read and comprehend English?
                        Oops sorry Rojik, my bad.

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                        • #13
                          Still would've lost.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                            Still would've lost.
                            Rather abrupt, care to explain.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                              Rather abrupt, care to explain.
                              Heim: Could the war have been won at all, even if no military mistakes had been made? My opinion is: no. From 1941 onwards at the latest it was just as lost as the Great War because the political aims bore no relation to whatsoever to GERMANY'S military and economic possibilities. The only thing HITLER'S particular method of waging war cost the German people, was millions too many people killed. That's the only thing - the war could not be won. The remarkable thing is this, a thing which I am always thinking: how is it that a country like GERMANY, which is situated in the middle of the continent, has not developed politics to an art, in order to maintain peace, a sensible peace, in this much more difficult situation, that, for instance, the English situation; that on both occasions we were so fatuously stupid as to think we could challenge the world - which is of course what it eventually amounts to when the war has been lost - without seeing that that is absolutely impossible in the situation in which we find ourselves in GERMANY. What are the reasons for it? Is it a lack of political understanding, is it lack of political experience - I am no politician, no historian, I don't know, I only see the question. We never could have won the war
                              Source: Transcript of a talk by Generalleutnant Heim to fellow POWs, 23 May 1945 in S. Neitzel (ed.) Tapping Hitler's Generals: Transcripts of Secret Conversations, 1942-45 Frontline Books, Barnsley, 2007, pp.159-60

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