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What if Lord Halifax (not Churchill) had become P.M.?

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  • What if Lord Halifax (not Churchill) had become P.M.?

    Many people believe that Lord Halifax would have come to some kind of accommodation with the Germans. What would have been the likely course of World War II if he had done so and made (something like) the following address to the British people?

    June 20th. 1940: Radio address by the Prime Minister to the British people.

    My fellow countrymen and women,

    I can announce to you today that I have received, by telegraph, assurances from Herr Hitler that the forces under the control of the German High Command will, from midnight tonight, turn eastwards from the shores of France. Thus, our armed forces, having fought so valiantly in the fields of France have, by the grace of God, been spared from the odious and hateful task of continuing the fight with our German cousins in a futile struggle on the seas, oceans and land. A struggle that would have brought upon this great nation and our Empire, a calamity unlike any it has known in its long and noble history. Had we continued upon this disastrous course, the citizens of our tiny and virtuous island would have suffered untold and futile slaughter on the landing grounds, slaughter in the fields and in the streets, and in the hills; a slaughter that, even should we have succeeded, would have left this great nation, and the far-flung resources of its Empire, exhausted, emaciated and unable to continue to resist the insidious and growing threat of international communism.

    Therefore, I have agreed with Herr Hitler and the German High Command that, henceforth, we shall combine the armed forces of our two great Christian nations in a noble, valiant and unstoppable crusade by land, sea and air against the atheist hordes of Stalin and his henchmen. A struggle that we will execute with unwavering resolve until the red menace in the east has been rendered utterly defeated and exhausted, their ideology discredited, and its adherents no longer able to ferment, incite and achieve their evil ambition of world Communism by means of their brutal and inhuman subjugation.

    Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have now fallen into the grip of Stalin and the odious apparatus of Communist rule, we shall not flag or fail in this endeavour, for upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilisation. Upon it depends our own British life, and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire.

    Stalin knows that, having now subjugated the Poles, the Finns and the Baltic states, he will have to break the German nation and its allies to achieve his immoral and vile ambition. If he succeeds, we may lose this struggle. But if we can stand up to him, all Europe may be free and the life of the world may move forward into broad, sunlit uplands. But if we fail, then the whole world, including the United States, including all that we have known and cared for, will sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted Godlessness. Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, upon the inevitable and successful conclusion of our struggle, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their Finest Hour'.


    Philip
    Last edited by PhilipLaos; 27 Nov 10, 19:12.
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." Bertrand Russell

  • #2
    Ok let's assume that this address occurs.

    Lord Halifax would have no option than to revoke their Declaration of War on Germany. Following this Britain and Germany would have to formally sign a peace treaty. Fuhrer Adolf Hitler is overly generous and decides that Britain can maintain the status quo, but Fuhrer Adolf Hitler isn't a fool and insists that at least 100,000 Germans are stationed in Britain as guests and are positioned near to Buckingham Palace and Westminster Palace, effectively rendering the Parliament and Royal Family hostages.

    Fuhrer Adolf Hitler orders that once his troops are in place then he will release British POW's.

    One major benfit to both Germany and Britain is that there no conflict in North Africa. Fuhrer Adolf Hitler agrees that Italy will be held in check, if Italian agression is begun then Germany will come down hard against Italy.

    Major influences like General Charles de Gaulle are wiped out. There would be no Free French. President Henri Petain would certainly would enter into a full alliance with Germany, thus there is no Vichy France, a new fourth republic is born. Partisans activity is all but wiped out getting no support from Britain.

    By June 22 1941.

    Operation Barbarossa begins with a united Western Europe. With the addition of British, French and More Italian troops the invading force is 500 divisions on multiple fronts.

    Germans and allies (Slovakia, Hungary, Roumania, Bulgaria and Yugoslavia) attack from the west, Germans/Fins attack from the North and a combination of German, British Commonwealth, French and Italians from the southern underbelly.

    RN/KM fleet destroys the Soviet Naval bases in Leningrad and Murmansk, RN/RM and French Fleet enter the Black sea and wipes out the Soviet Black Sea Fleet.

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    • #3
      I think 500 Divisions is ridiculously implausible, 250-300 sounds more realistic to me.

      The bottom line is, the USSR falls. The USSR will now be greatly outnumbered. The British, Commonwealth, French, Germans, and maybe the Italians can deploy to Iraq and Iran, and attack the Caucuses. The Germans will have many many Divisions to employ on the Eastern Front, if Hitler is smart he'll use these troops to focus on rear area road construction/anti partisan duties, thus removing some German supply issues. In addition to that, German combat loses can be replaced much easier.
      A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
        I think 500 Divisions is ridiculously implausible, 250-300 sounds more realistic to me.

        The bottom line is, the USSR falls. The USSR will now be greatly outnumbered. The British, Commonwealth, French, Germans, and maybe the Italians can deploy to Iraq and Iran, and attack the Caucuses. The Germans will have many many Divisions to employ on the Eastern Front, if Hitler is smart he'll use these troops to focus on rear area road construction/anti partisan duties, thus removing some German supply issues. In addition to that, German combat loses can be replaced much easier.
        Just because Britain agrees to peace treaty does not mean that she automatically aligns with the Germans. I realise a crusade against Communism appeals to some posters on this forum, but reality check here - Fascism is just as unappealing as Communism, and Operation Barbarossa is an opportunity to jump the Germans again.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
          Just because Britain agrees to peace treaty does not mean that she automatically aligns with the Germans. I realise a crusade against Communism appeals to some posters on this forum, but reality check here - Fascism is just as unappealing as Communism
          I don't see that as being probable either. More likely is the Germans getting a 'free hand' in Eastern Europe whilst the British return to something like their former status and role in the far flung areas of the World. As a sweetener I suspect that trade rights and a guaranteed supply of certain goods would be guaranteed by the British.
          Signing out.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
            I think 500 Divisions is ridiculously implausible, 250-300 sounds more realistic to me.

            The bottom line is, the USSR falls. The USSR will now be greatly outnumbered. The British, Commonwealth, French, Germans, and maybe the Italians can deploy to Iraq and Iran, and attack the Caucuses. The Germans will have many many Divisions to employ on the Eastern Front, if Hitler is smart he'll use these troops to focus on rear area road construction/anti partisan duties, thus removing some German supply issues. In addition to that, German combat loses can be replaced much easier.
            Um yeah 500 divisons is excessive, your figure of 250-300 is more reasonable, good call.

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            • #7
              I'll have to agree with Britain not sending trooops to the Russian front. I also question if it is really plausible, even in an AH setup, to have 100,000 German troops stationed on British soil.
              The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
                I'll have to agree with Britain not sending trooops to the Russian front. I also question if it is really plausible, even in an AH setup, to have 100,000 German troops stationed on British soil.
                Yes, Germany is in the driving seat, it has to get concessions and permanent security in case Britain changes its mind, having the Parliament and Royal Family under "protection" enshews co-operation, maybe in 10 years once National Socialism is entrenched in Britian, Germany might be able to bring hoe the body guards or just like the Swiss Guard in the Vatican, they may end up as a permanent feature.

                If i was Adolf Hitler that is exactly what i would have done.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                  Just because Britain agrees to peace treaty does not mean that she automatically aligns with the Germans. I realise a crusade against Communism appeals to some posters on this forum, but reality check here - Fascism is just as unappealing as Communism, and Operation Barbarossa is an opportunity to jump the Germans again.
                  That is what I thought when I first read this thread. Britain is more likely to simply end their involvement and return to peace then get involved in a war in Russia.
                  Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Roddoss72 View Post
                    Yes, Germany is in the driving seat, it has to get concessions and permanent security in case Britain changes its mind, having the Parliament and Royal Family under "protection" enshews co-operation, maybe in 10 years once National Socialism is entrenched in Britian, Germany might be able to bring hoe the body guards or just like the Swiss Guard in the Vatican, they may end up as a permanent feature.

                    If i was Adolf Hitler that is exactly what i would have done.
                    Well, that might be what Hitler would want to do, but IMO that seriously strains any alliance between Germany and Great Britain. Maybe I just can't throw my brain out the window and envision it. Its ust not something I see Great Britain agreeing to--ever. To station that many troops in a country isn't peace, its conquest.

                    Maybe under the pacifists and appeasers it could be possible, so I'll try to open my mind up to the idea without remembering the pride and will of the British people would never let something like that happen.

                    The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                      I don't see that as being probable either. More likely is the Germans getting a 'free hand' in Eastern Europe whilst the British return to something like their former status and role in the far flung areas of the World. As a sweetener I suspect that trade rights and a guaranteed supply of certain goods would be guaranteed by the British.
                      Yeah that's a likely outcome too. Nevertheless, Germany will be able to employ much greater resources on the Eastern Front, and the Balkans might not even be Invaded seeing how Mussolini attacked Greece because he needed a cheap victory to take public attention away from his failures in Africa.

                      I can possibly see him attacking Turkey, Italy was promised a far bit of Turkish land during WW1 was it not? Britain and Greece might also join in on this, and they might strike at the Caucus for oil.
                      A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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                      • #12
                        How long would it take this unholy German/British/French/others alliance to turn its sights on the US? Would it be powerful enough to do so?
                        The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
                          How long would it take this unholy German/British/French/others alliance to turn its sights on the US? Would it be powerful enough to do so?
                          Why would they attack the US? Britain wouldn't do that and Germany isn't capable of attacking USA. They haven't got the naval strength.
                          A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
                            How long would it take this unholy German/British/French/others alliance to turn its sights on the US? Would it be powerful enough to do so?
                            Unholy alliance is a very good description: only extreme right-wing (or extreme anti-communist) fantasists could seriously imagine it. Vichy France was formed by the rump military and rightist/royalist factions in France mostly to save face. The only military force allowed had to be stationed overseas. Britain would have to be emasculated to a similar fashion, if only to protect the German rear. It would also be subject to the same requisitioning that blighted the rest of occupied Europe. Hitler may have been a gambler, but he wasn't a stupid gambler.

                            As for when would this motley group take on the US - almost as soon as they had destroyed the USSR. Force projection would be via the RN, the Z plan navy and France's remaining fleet. And they would come in via Canada, which the US would never have attacked because of the neutrality acts.

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                            • #15
                              The underlying assuption of this thread is bollocks. Halifax prefered peace, but never would have agreed to anything even vaguely resembling a surrender, or close cooperation with the nazis. He understood by mid 1940 just what a threat they were to the Empire & he was as much a defender of that as anyone amoung British leadership. Even had he reached some sort of peace agreement with Germany its more likely he would have seen the logic in a pact with the devil like Churchill.

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