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  • Dashy
    replied
    Xenephon=awesome.

    just thought i'd put that out there, IMO the only guy capable of beating the Zulus.

    carry on.

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    The Diadochi were all excessive binge drinkers, and many lived to a ripe old age. For example Antigonus was 81 and died in battle trying to rally his men. His right wing cavalry drove off most of the enemy in front, but ended up exposing his infantry to a flank attack to the enemy cavalry and skirmishers that remained.





    I believe Alexander would have died like Cyrus the Great, after one campaign too many.

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  • piero1971
    replied
    yeah, but once the Zulus attack, by bye Alexander!!

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  • Czin
    replied
    Originally posted by DracoBorealis View Post
    Agree he was no Napoleon Bonaparte or Ceasar/August. But I woud still love to see the movie about his ATTEMPTED conquest of Rome.
    He was drinking himself to death in his final years; his liver would one day end up packing it's things, jumping out of his mouth and running away to the nearest organ abuse therapy center at which point he flops over dead. He would be so drunken and have lost so many of his brain cells that his invasion would look more like a Circus act that any serious military threat.

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  • Rojik
    replied
    Originally posted by Czin View Post
    His Empire still ends up crumbling; it was quite clear that he lacked much skill at infrastructure building and other things that are vital to actually maintaining an empire.
    I'm not sure you can say that about a man that was dead at 32. Had he lived another 10 years then you could make a judgement.

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  • Draco Borealis
    replied
    Originally posted by Czin View Post
    His Empire still ends up crumbling; it was quite clear that he lacked much skill at infrastructure building and other things that are vital to actually maintaining an empire.
    Agree he was no Napoleon Bonaparte or Ceasar/August. But I woud still love to see the movie about his ATTEMPTED conquest of Rome.

    Leave a comment:


  • Czin
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    Alexander doesn't die in Babylon 323BC, but recovers fully fit?



    What happens next, and could there be the strong possibility of a real impact on world history as we know it today?

    Perhaps much of North Africa and India under one ruler?
    His Empire still ends up crumbling; it was quite clear that he lacked much skill at infrastructure building and other things that are vital to actually maintaining an empire.

    Leave a comment:


  • Castle Nut
    replied
    Great discussions so far. While Alex was heading home with his generals, had he survived to make it back to Macedonia, those who took over after his death would probably have gone back had he survived to administrate the empire. Alexander, becoming restless could look west or even north. Looking west he could not deny the naval requirement. Others have already covered this. North would begin to require armies of different sorts. Alex's mind would make the best of it and create another amazing military force and would advance until his death, whenever that would have come.

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    The mutinies faced by Alexander were down to two reasons, both circumvented by a season or two of rest and recouperation. First, some felt the Persians were getting too much say. Secondly, and far more important, some soldiers were now very rich, and simply wanted to go home and spend/enjoy their money. As I said earlier, a direct result of this would see a reduction in the numbers of Balkan Pikemen in an Alexandrian army, but an increase in Middle Eastern cavalry and missile power.

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  • Dashy
    replied
    Also Alexander was training Persians in heavy infantry tactics, his so-called younglings. it could have backfired though, he already had to slog through two mutinies due to his Persian love/love of conquest, who knows, it could have been the final straw.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by MajorSennef View Post
    Had Alexander lived on I expect that after his sick bed experiences he would have taken time out, in order to reflect

    He would consider that his army for a variety of reasons might not follow him to the ends of the world in the East.
    So in spite of the glittering Indian empires luring him on personally, he would have to refrain for practical reasons.
    The West must have had less attractions for him compared to the East.
    Additionally, trying to conquer the western Mediterranean would make him far more dependant on maritime resources (Phoenicians) and on seaborne operations. I'm not convinced that Alexander would have liked that sort of unfamiliar dependence.
    In the north, there is nothing but wasteland for him; in the south is Arabia and Yemen

    So, I would expect that the outcome of Alexander's pondering would be to create and empire that would stand the test of time
    with an occasional military foray to the south into Arabia Felix/Yemen.
    He would consolidate his empire, through trade and multiculturalism
    and start to think about how to provide a worthy successor to the throne.

    Results: As Alexander lived on the Persian cultural influences would be stronger stronger than Hellenism was in the real world.
    Another interesting result for our then Persianised world would be that its norms and values would be stemming from Persian (based on Ahura Mazda) rather than from Judeo-Christian ones.
    I usually agree with you on most matters, but not this .

    I agree that Alexander would probably need a few seasons to recoup and consilidate. He probably would have to re balance his army. I believe his heavy infantry force of pikes would diminish. Many would return home perminantly, although some would stay or return, but numbers would be fewer, hence his foray into adding Persian missilemen into the phallanx imo. The number of Companions would not diminish imo, as both Prodromi and local Persian nobles were inducted into that force. Persians made excellent cavalry of all sorts, and would be able to fulfill all the previous roles carried out by the Prodromi. In addition, Indian mercenary longbow and javelinmen may now be a real option, and Sogdians could replace Agrianians in the same role.

    Alexanders army may be similar to that of a latter Edward I force of Knights backed up by heavy missilepower. The ability to soften up the enemy before making that heroic devastating charge could possibly be a very seductive option to Alexander.

    With Chandragupta Maurya eating into his hard fought gains from c321BC, I believe Alexanders ego would allow no other action but to fight this opposing King of Kings. Although Mauryan forces were said to be of incredible size, feeding and supporting them in the field is another matter. I suspect both armies would have been of roughly equal size, and that the battle would probably be one of heavier Indian units (ie foot supported by elephants), verses a more mobile Alexandrian (cavalry) force.

    Just my two cents .

    Leave a comment:


  • Cyberknight
    replied
    Originally posted by MajorSennef View Post
    Had Alexander lived on I expect that after his sick bed experiences he would have taken time out, in order to reflect

    He would consider that his army for a variety of reasons might not follow him to the ends of the world in the East.
    So in spite of the glittering Indian empires luring him on personally, he would have to refrain for practical reasons.
    The West must have had less attractions for him compared to the East.
    Additionally, trying to conquer the western Mediterranean would make him far more dependant on maritime resources (Phoenicians) and on seaborne operations. I'm not convinced that Alexander would have liked that sort of unfamiliar dependence.
    In the north, there is nothing but wasteland for him; in the south is Arabia and Yemen

    So, I would expect that the outcome of Alexander's pondering would be to create and empire that would stand the test of time
    with an occasional military foray to the south into Arabia Felix/Yemen.
    He would consolidate his empire, through trade and multiculturalism
    and start to think about how to provide a worthy successor to the throne.

    Results: As Alexander lived on the Persian cultural influences would be stronger stronger than Hellenism was in the real world.
    Another interesting result for our then Persianised world would be that its norms and values would be stemming from Persian (based on Ahura Mazda) rather than from Judeo-Christian ones.
    Agreed. Alexander was very fond of the absolutism that Persian monarchs exercised compared to Greeks and Macedonians.

    OTOH, the need for satrapies roughly eqal to the regions that the successors ended up ruling seems necessary in order to govern such a large empire, so the conquered lands may well have split roughly the same after he debauched himself to death or died in later campaigns or, unlikelu IMO, died of old age.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cyberknight
    replied
    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
    yes, arabia (wel, the coastal areas, Oman, Yemen, etc.) would be next, and fairly easy to conquer.

    advancing through the north african coast would be possible and then who knows? North from Macedonia towards Dacia and across the Carpatians into the Slavic plains? or West through Dalmatia and Illyria and across the adriatic to conquer the fertile Italic lands ? or gobble up the rich, but military weak Carthaginan tradeposts ? with then Iberia to take (a much harder one that one!)

    but eventually, Alex had to die and with inability to procreate... who takes over?
    Alexander was quite able to procreate and supposedly did. The unfortunate policy of leaders of that day to prevent challenges to succession was however rather final.

    Leave a comment:


  • Legate
    replied
    Originally posted by MajorSennef View Post
    IIRC this was more SF than alternative history, including conquest of China.
    Toynbee than continues with Alexander’s successors still on the throne being served by steam engines and crossing the Atlantic Ocean around 200 AD.
    Toynbee’s flight of fancy ends with a sort of benign Alexandrine world government based on Buddhist beliefs by Alexander XXVI
    I was able to do a quick overview and Jereon's assessment would be right on the mark.
    The essay starts from the premise that Alexander has conqured the Mediterranian basin and is poised cross the Beas River. This time he is using defeated Italian troops who longer have homes in Italy.
    Chandragupta is mentioned but instead of being the great conqueror he was he instead becomes an secret agent for Alexander and assists in the conquest of India.
    Toynbee makes the assumption that Alexander's successors would be cut from the same cloth and that his dynasty would be benevolent leaders. Any examination of the various royal families around the world would give lie to this.

    The book is titled The Impact of Alexander the Great edited by Eugene N. Borza

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  • Colonel Sennef
    replied
    Originally posted by Legate View Post
    Arnold Toynbee wrote an essay about this very scenario. I believe I still have the book that contained the essay. It is my bedtime tho,so I will dig the book out before I go to work in the am. I'll post whatever thoughts he had when I get home from work.
    IIRC this was more SF than alternative history, including conquest of China.
    Toynbee than continues with Alexander’s successors still on the throne being served by steam engines and crossing the Atlantic Ocean around 200 AD.
    Toynbee’s flight of fancy ends with a sort of benign Alexandrine world government based on Buddhist beliefs by Alexander XXVI
    Last edited by Colonel Sennef; 31 Aug 10, 05:48.

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