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How would you structure your emerging nation's military?

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  • TacCovert4
    replied
    I'll divide this into training, Northern, Southern, and Reserve Command:

    Training Command:

    Give them the T-34s. Cannibalize to get as many running as possible. These will be the trainer tanks for your mechanized school, and trainers for infantry that will be operating in close proximity to tanks.

    You want to set up the schools to train armor, infantry, engineers, anti-aircraft troops, artillery, and the supporting arms. Emphasis on the officers, especially with the supporting arms, as logistics will be vital to sustaining any conflict past the first 10 days or so.

    Northern Command:

    This command has the terrain that's most suitable for operation of mobile forces. Also because of the nature of mobile forces and the neighbor to the north, you can reinforce the South in event of war.

    Therefore I'd look at building a number (between 2-3) of "Motor Rifle" divisions based on the following model:

    1 bn (5 coys, 20 tanks total, plus 5 recovery vehicles and 20 trucks (configured for ammo, fuel, and other supplies)) of armor.

    2 leg infantry battalions. Logistics support vehicles, but not enough to move the battalions around. Primarily these will be used for rear area troops and holding fixed positions, or as tank riders.

    2 Motorized infantry battalions:

    1 Company of Anti-aircraft vehicles (truck-mounted SAMs and cannon) (approx 15 vehicles with support personnel).
    1 Anti-tank Company (vehicle borne. a platoon of BRDMs with missile launchers would be ideal with another platoon or two of ATGMs with Toyota pickups to carry the launchers and crews.)
    1 Company of BTR borne infantry (BMPs would be ideal, but we're trying to be economical here). These will be the assault infantry.
    2 Companies of Truck borne infantry. Try to use the same toyota trucks, at 1 squad per truck. Also have 1 truck mounted MG per platoon, and 5 vehicles as HQ platoon (Coy C, 2 MGs, 2 trucks carrying recoilless rifles)
    1 Heavy weapons company: Use trucks carrying mortars and crews for rapid deplioyment, Recoilless Rifles, and HMGs)

    1 Artillery Battery of 105mm or 152mm towed guns (6-8 per division).

    2 of these would suffice for Northcom. Southcom would consist of the following:

    4 infantry divisions consisting of 2 infantry regiments apiece, each regiment having a battery of 120mm mortars and a company of tanks and of truck-borne ATGMs. Each division should have a battery of 105 or 152mm artillery. Each Division should also have an air defense company around the same model as the armored divisions

    The reserves should be based around infantry with sufficient supporting arms troops. Reserves should be organized into fully functional regiments by region, so that they can be activated and added to existing divisional structures in short order. Reservists should also pull periodic duty on the borders as their annual training requirements. By skillfully setting this up, this should provide border patrol military forces for the nation, in addition to customs forces already in place.

    I'll leave the airforce stuff to someone else.

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  • lakechampainer
    replied
    Here is an article in Der Spiegel which touches upon many of the political issues that were discussed in this thread, especially how France and the how US have changed their outlook towards Africa.

    http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,6046354,00.html

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
    And if China ever does start to have some real success in Africa and South America, etc. the US will be there fighting proxy wars, etc.
    In S. America China has already had such success that the locals view the Chinese the same way carpet-baggers used to be in the ex-Confederate states in the 1800s, or the Jews were in Germany in the 1920s.
    They hold the purse-strings, and ain't shy about using their power. However, success like that can be a curse.


    I wouldn't go with Centurions, their day has come and gone. I would want a good MBT, preferably one that can be updated as the years go by. The French AMX-30 might be a good cross between cost-effective and versatility. It's relatively lighter weight would also do less damage to fragile roads.

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  • lakechampainer
    replied
    I think China is going to find how expensive it is to project power across oceans and how difficult it is to actually make many setting up a "virtual empire". Their politico-military position is completely different from that of of the US. Ignoring the Southern US Border immigration problem for a moment (granted quite an elephant in the room to ignore) the US has no viable potential enemy within thousands of miles (except for Alaska). China has India, Japan, Russia, Vietnam, etc. The naval power and air power they have now, is to a large extent designed to contest the US right off the Chinese coast. This is reasonable objective. Anything beyond this and they are at risk of being like Imperial Germany: putting resources into a Navy (and Air Force) which is expensive, takes away from land power, and threatens the perceived interests of a great power.

    And if China ever does start to have some real success in Africa and South America, etc. the US will be there fighting proxy wars, etc.

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
    Chinese involvement in Africa first caught my eye on one of the Michael Palin documentaries - possibly Sahara from memory. The Chinese were providing infrastructure in return for primary goods, eg coal, diamonds, metals. In one way it was expensive in that the Chinese were getting very favourable terms (think British Empire and any empire earlier). On the other hand, you get an infrastructure effectively for free, since it wasn't possible before, and those assets you have given the Chinese were not being used for now.

    However, offering a deal with China, and letting the US undercut said deal seems appropriate. I would willingly go on telly to state how wonderful the US government was (whether Obama, Bush or Clinton types) if I got a better deal for my country.
    Yeah with the way things are going now I think the US would be happy to have 1 less country being economically raped by China. (I'm referring to the ACG article on this subject)

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
    I would be very hesitant to invite the Chinese in. This is exactly the scenario which can anger the US, which will not take kindly to this, especially the new Africa Command, which as an institution will naturally consider this a potential threat to the US. In my lifetime, even assuming I die a natural death, the US will remain the big kid on the block, and it seems counterproductive to me to antagonize them.
    Chinese involvement in Africa first caught my eye on one of the Michael Palin documentaries - possibly Sahara from memory. The Chinese were providing infrastructure in return for primary goods, eg coal, diamonds, metals. In one way it was expensive in that the Chinese were getting very favourable terms (think British Empire and any empire earlier). On the other hand, you get an infrastructure effectively for free, since it wasn't possible before, and those assets you have given the Chinese were not being used for now.

    However, offering a deal with China, and letting the US undercut said deal seems appropriate. I would willingly go on telly to state how wonderful the US government was (whether Obama, Bush or Clinton types) if I got a better deal for my country.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dashy
    replied
    Ok, i would get free shipments of american arms in exchange for acess to oil and elimination of the marxists

    PLUS training! it doesn't get better!

    Leave a comment:


  • lakechampainer
    replied
    I would be very hesitant to invite the Chinese in. This is exactly the scenario which can anger the US, which will not take kindly to this, especially the new Africa Command, which as an institution will naturally consider this a potential threat to the US. In my lifetime, even assuming I die a natural death, the US will remain the big kid on the block, and it seems counterproductive to me to antagonize them.

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  • Nick the Noodle
    replied
    Originally posted by stryker 19k30 View Post
    i will add a few more parameters and expand on others as they have come up in the conversation.

    The country has some mineral wealth. In the north there is a small amount of oil, though not extensive it is present, but yet to be truly tapped into. It is far enough away from the somewhat disputed border so the northern neighbor really has no claim on them at all. Diamonds have been mined for years in the south, though not in an extensive or really organized manner. With the diamonds there is also large deposits of coal, that were mined in the colonial days but since independence it has barley been touched. There are also rubber trees in the south.

    The main threat at this time is smuggling along the river to and from the chaotic country, human trafficking, blood diamonds, weapons, and money transit the river almost unimpeded.

    Politically the country is stable along tribal and religious lines. The country is mostly catholic, with other denominations missionaries working in earnest in the country. The population mostly belong to the same tribal back ground with an ethnic arab minority in the north that lives a almost autonomous nomadic lifestyle often between both countries. (think bedouin) while technically most are citizens and subject to conscription they are usually completely ignored for this purpose. A very small percentage of them volunteer for the military to escape the nomadic lifestyle. They are docile and pose no threat to security.

    At times refugees and transplants from other countries cause clashes, though this is rare. In the bush banditry is a bit of a problem, and bandits have begun to attack smuggling operations on the river. (river - think zambezi)

    there are small radical political factions, 3 marxist groups that compete with themselves and 1 nationalist group that is in favor of returning the tribal monarchy, with their leader as the monarch of course. While these groups are very minor, if the nation doesn't start to turn for the better, they could grow in popularity and add to instability.

    Most of the population in the bush is ignorant to politics and focus on their lives. In the capital and other larger city politics play a major role and there are 3 political parties based on the uk's (their former colonial master)

    this should give a better thought process to some points
    First to deal with the infra-structure. I think I would bite the bullet and invite the Chinese in. In return for mineral wealth, they would aid with road construction, and perhaps with some security issues, ie smuggling. I would not allow mercenaries, but I would certainly allow Chinese officers in charge of my local men. Inviting the Chinese in could help politically with the Marxist threats, by bringing them on board. People who tend to join such groups, at least the rank and file, tend to need jobs, so putting some in the new construction industries would appear sensible. To counter the Left, part of the construction would be to build a mega cathedral, and ask the Vatican for advice. In return I would request help from them in hospitals, medicine and education. Each of the 6 districts would supply a minister to the Cabinet. I assume the National Party has one district, and they can supply their king if they want.

    Hopefully, that should sort out the political issues. The next main problem is economic long term viability. The Chinese would be given some leeway, but our new country needs export dollars. The presence of the Chinese, and their willingness to protect their assets should help against smugglers. I would invite Western special op groups eg SAS in, with our country as a live training ground, to deal with smugglers/insurgents as well. Oil in the north I would not touch for now, leaving it as a strategic reserve, but I would press ahead with extracting primary resources of all types. Agriculture would be boosted as fed people tend to be less revolutionary than starving people.

    Now to defend my country . The Palace Guard will be upgraded to an armoured brigade with Centurions. Tough, reliable, cheap and proven against most Soviet types this tank would be my first choice. The Tribal Brigade will be light infantry. The rest will be motorised, probably in Land Rovers or Toyotas depending on the deal I can get. Basic weaponary will remain AK-47's and other cheap kit, as its the man rather than the weapon which is dangerous. Each district will be have its own brigade. I would add two more mobile brigades, of volunteers, as a central force in case one district decided to go alone.

    8 Hawks for my airforce, plus a few cheap light aircraft for spotters.

    Finally, I would be A Man for the People of the People. I would lead a Spartan existance, until the country was running full pelt at least. Then I would retire far far away .

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    I see a lot of people trying to get the military involved in Private Enterprise.... BAD idea.

    What Africa lacks more than anything else is a Middle class, making a place safe for on would build your country up like few others, you'd grow faster than China.

    Reward the Military by improving their barracks and living conditions to reflect an improving economy, but keep them away from situations where bribery would be easy.
    That's what is killing that place now.

    You might have to be a Vlad Tepes' for a couple of years to enforce that, but that won't be unusual for Africa. Then, when you relax it, you'll be the most popular man on the continent.

    I assumed that all the units were understrength, "Hitler complex" is common where every one of the President's cousins wants to be a General. You also have a lot of dead-wood at every level, which is why I'd advocate a reduction to 3 Brigades, and try to build them to 7k men each.

    You can get the other three back (DON"T throw ANY equipment away) by establishing Reserve Brigades. Once your good soldiers start leaving the service, offer them a good deal for a few years in reserve service. Recruit 2 or three new guys for every old hand, so that good habits wear off and the Reserves can move and behave like Regulars.
    It will take years, but this gives you another edge on other Armys in the region.

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    Oh, and just wondering. How many mortars and artillery would the Artillery battalion have? A medium battery of 152mm guns would likely be 6-8 guns, so how many batteries in the battalion, and how many mortars in a battery and how many batteries of mortars in the battalion?

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    I would definitely get some decent Jets, that double as fighters and attackers. Getting some more MI-8s would be ideal too. Discipline and training will be problematic, so I'd probably appeal to China for help. Ask for some military advisers, training personnel to train pilots, maintenance crews, etc. For my 6 brigades, I would probably aim to make 1 armored and one motorized, rather than distributing equipment piecemeal. I'd try to restore all the armor into working condition, and buy some more T-54/T-55s from China, plus some BMPs or something like that. As for the artillery battalion, I'd probably try to up that to an artillery regiment or artillery brigade, so that in the event of a large war I could support several of my brigades with the artillery brigade, which I would arm with Rocket Arty, and heavier artillery guns. I would want every Brigade to have it's own artillery though, so I'd get mortars and light artillery pieces for that. As for Officers, I'd send them to whoever would agree to train them. I also would consider asking the UN to have one of the security council members help out too, in he form of rearmament and training and in return I'd agree to be part of a peacekeeping mission to the west if they need additional bodies. This way my men can get some experience doing work.

    As for the oil and, the diamonds, the coal and the rubber, I'd focus on exploiting that. Soldiers on reserve duty would help build infrastructure around those areas and at the same time set up additional military bases.

    As for the militia, I would arm them better and train them better and designate them as boarder guards, they would only be armed with small arms, little transportation. This way I can keep most of my regular Armed Forces inside the country, so they can redeploy easier.

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  • Dashy
    replied
    Originally posted by White Mongoose View Post
    Well that's pretty much it for right now. I'm really tired! But more will come tomorrow.

    If I suck... It's because I've never receive any formal training, so I'd prefer to try do something that no one would expect and take them by surprise and fight dirty like as NVA did in Vietnam war or US did in Revolution war.
    yeah like napalming monkey's, making an entire generation retarded with chemicals and calling it gardening, bombing neutral countries on the pretext of taking out supply routes and having a massively overpowering advantage in every single way. those dirty vietnamese should have just lined up in battle formation and marched into machine guns like good pushovers.

    not fighting dirty, being resourceful.

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  • Dashy
    replied
    just to clarify, i have 6 brigades plus a fanatical presidental guard? are the brigades full strength or do i have Hitler syndrome?


    now to the important stuff, first course of action would be to get some decent trainers in, possibly Rhodesian war veterans, a group who is experienced in african warfare, and some israeils to train them in desert warfare .the Rhodesians training the guys for unconventional warfare, about 2 brigades, perhaps less and a third of the ,im supposing, elite presidentail guard (to act as special forces). the "special forces" would be trained in assasination and strateigic sabotage, finding a trainer for these roles would be hard but i think it would be possible. i would equip them with the best weaopnary affordable (perhaps even bribe H&K and make them resume a clandestine production of the G-11, who says you cant dream?) and the finest vehicles on the market. they would be used as a deterrent and first strike option, able to cripple the enemy with little fuss. the other four brigades i would train in open desert warfare, israel style.

    as for new equipment, i would buy all the skyhawks off NZ for stupidly low prices and refit them as trainers/tactical air support. I would also look into the going price of american small arms in Iraq, due to american forces pulling out of the region i may be able to get some cheap small arms in good condition for the grunts.



    Armourwise, i would first liason (once again) with NZ and buy the scorpions they are so desperate to get rid of, IMO they are perfect for defensive operations in the north, small and fast, but with a punch. they would be used as an elastic defense to attack the enemy as soon as he strikes. for offensive punch( if thats the aim) i would attempty to purchase some Oilfant's from south africa, these tanks, as with the scorpion, are suited for desert condtions. once the enemy assault has been stopped by the scorpion part of the armoured Div the centourion section would move to cut them off, 1943 style, once the enemy had been cut off the armored div would move off with the motorised div (i think, due to numbers, these "Divisions" would only be of brigade strength, if not weaker) into the gap created, advancing along the enmy supply line and hopefully penetrating deeply. once sufficent penetration had been achived, the Olifant's will cricle back to attack the rest of the enemy line from behind while the scorpions raced ahead to cause havoc behind enemy lines. i would distribute the soviet tanks among the the 4 desert trained brigades to boost morale and provide infantry support.

    thats it for now, more incoming soon

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  • White Mongoose
    replied
    Well here's a brief plan in nutshell:

    -I'd wind up those who are out of job and have them make simple but effective nasty weapon/traps such as bullet in tiny cup with nail underneath it, napalm, IED, etc...

    -Gathers up all those with some skills and make them a govt. employee.

    -Those with skills would do things like draw out even better map, construction/engineer related thing, mechanistic, figure out how to upgrade anything possible, etc... Also each of them would be required to teach once a week at least and the top of each field will be offer to be a full time teacher.

    -Every students will have some educate in engineering, construction, mechanic, politic science, mathematics, and medical field. Once they get to 16, they will chose a field to specialize in. Then they'll have to serve 4 years in the military after their training.

    -Redesign city so it have three layers. The city would be designed to give each layer maximum effective in every possible way such as eliminate safety zone where enemies can rush and avoid being shot or whatever, in way so any street or path can be shut off to prevent anyone from enter and funnel them into killing zone, and more.

    -Each man will carry certain amount of various traps design to disable enemies or vehicles. Each vehicles beside aircraft would carry some amount as well. I don't want my troops to fight toe to toe. I'd prefer them to quickly set traps up and retreat to the city and get ready to defend. In my opinion, the best way to fight against ground troops is by not being there. Let the traps or mines take care of them and reduce the amount of manpower and drain their morals before they even see us!

    -the war plan will rely heavily on how to best use city to advantage. There will even be a brigade that will always remain outside of the city and well out of sight so they can sneak up and surprise the enemies if the enemies tries to lay a siege. Also there will be a lot of plans on how to force the enemies to go along the river so they would be fight with their side or back to the river. Wet troops doesn't fight as well as dry one!!!

    Well that's pretty much it for right now. I'm really tired! But more will come tomorrow.

    If I suck... It's because I've never receive any formal training, so I'd prefer to try do something that no one would expect and take them by surprise and fight dirty like as NVA did in Vietnam war or US did in Revolution war.

    Leave a comment:

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