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How would you structure your emerging nation's military?

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  • #16
    Something like this was done in Weapons of War forum.... but it didn't get off the ground much even though it initially gained alot of interest, including me it seems.
    "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
    Ernest Hemingway.

    "The more I learn about people, The more I love my dog".
    Mark Twain.


    • #17
      Initial thoughts on a new Armed Forces

      This is fun. I started earlier today at work, but had more time to think while being home. Rebuilding a Nationís military. When looking at the all the parameters and descriptions, the best real scenario Country I could see may be Benin.
      I concur with Exorcist, keep everything and utilize it until replaced, then use it for target practice or sell them to the highest bidder. First off, I would begin talks with both the USA and China as my main supplier of military equipment as well as Japan.
      The Armed Forces of Afriland need a major restructuring to meet the threats of the modern world. Iím looking at about a five year plan for modernizing. You also need to consider heavily the terrain you live in and the National objectives of your military.
      Letís start with the ĎNavyí. Most of your coastline you need speed to cover the small space that you have, so lets go with 4 High Speed Coastal Interceptorís from Tampa Yacht Manufacturing. To back them up with some punch, get 2 Gumdoksuri Class patrol boatís from South Korea. Smaller boats could be purchased used from the USA for river patrol purposes.
      Next is the Air Force. I would talk to the USA about a long lease deal for about 12 F-16 Falconís that are being phased out of active US service as they phase in the newer F35ís. Lockheed would love a nice contract. Additionally, since there exist only one airport, make a deal with the US to build an additional airport to be used exclusively for U.S. and Afriland Air Forces. I would also work a deal for 3 C-130ís to move men and material across the Nation in a rapid movement. You can also barter with the UN for additional funds to utilize these C-130ís for humanitarian purposes. Upgrade the helicopter fleet to 10 Blackhawks and 10 Kiowaís.
      Next is the Army, which is both the main defensive and offensive power you have. First is to go from the top down. Activate a new HQ, at Corps level, I Corps for lack of anything else. Under your Corps command will two Divisional commands, each with 2 Brigades, each Brigade has 3 Battalions, each Battalion has 4 Companyís, each Company, 4 Platoons.

      Additionally, there will be two Special Forces companies, one Company per Division.

      The 6 Battalions of regional militia is going to be dissolved and the manpower absorbed into regular Army. In place of militiaís, a Civilian Corps of Engineers would be better suited to be called up in cases of natural disasters and emergencies. This new CCE could handle all of the infrastructure crisis that is often dumped on militaryís just because of their standing organizations.

      The Presidential Guards is going to be dissolved. That smacks of dictatorships and causes animosity between the regular Army and PG. What is going to be stood up is a new National Para Military Police in itís place. Similar to Italyís Carabineri. This new police force will provide security for the politicians. Their SWAT teams could practice with the Armyís Special Forces to build inter agency trust and working understanding.

      Since the Army has been used to AK style of small arms, this is where China will come into play as the main supplier of all infantry arms. While not impossible, it may be more practical to keep ChiCom,Russia style of small arms in the ranks.

      The make up of each Brigade will be Air Defense, Infantry, Heavy Weapons. All Brigades will be trained and equipped to be highly mobile either by vehicle or helo.
      The jungles and desert areas will not need tanks or heavy artillery any more. Anti tank missiles, light and heavy mortars, and air defense platforms will provide the punch and defense. As will the F16's and weapons platforms for the Helo's.
      I would contract with Japan for some Komatsu LAVís and Isuzu Type 73 Heavy Trucks. The clearance and construction of these vehicles would suit the terrain, both jungle, desert, and urban better than any of the large vehicles built for and favored by US Forces. Also some IFV and APCís would be a great assets and needed to highly mobile troop formations.
      "Never push the red button" Daffy Duck


      • #18
        I was just getting started, but a couple of quick points;

        A handful of jets that can serve as fighters, and enough AAMs to keep them credible, is important.
        If you don't have them, the guys to your north, or anyone at all, can interdict you with their fighters and cause real havoc. Just the threat of doing so can cripple you politically.
        SAMS are not cheap, they cannot give you air supperiority, and they cannot come to the rescue of a nearby ally.

        DON"T disband your territorials. Those men have an intimate knowledge of the local terrain and until you have a good map depot... a process that can take years, you need them.

        If you want to trim, disband half of your 6 brigades. 3 high-grade Brigades would be enough to cut a swath through half the continent. Making them 1st class units is possible, but more on that later.


        • #19
          Continued theory of Initial thoughts....

          Continuing my thoughts and approach: As the benevolent leader of this Nation, my plan is to ensure that my small Nation is safe and secure. I do not wish to build an offensive natured Armed Forces, but one that will surely give any aggressor great pause knowing that they will enter a killing field of buzzsaws should they enter. I have to consider my Nationís economic health for the immediate and long term (unlike someone we see daily) and not overspend.
          The goal is to create a smaller but modern force that is highly trained, has the best equipment possible, and are well taken care of. The motive behind disbanding the Ďregional militiaísí is to centralize defense spending and operational command. Since the RMís were poorly trained and equipped, they suit no purpose other than being a paper tiger and cannon fodder. Building regional CBnís (Constructional battalions) would suit the Nationís needs much better.
          To address conscription, all males and females must register at age 18. All males must serve three years of service between the ages of 18 Ė 28, either in the Armed Forces, National Police, or in the CCE. Determination can be made by physical and aptitude abilities. No exemptions to service other than extreme mental/physical disabilities. Political, monetary, and family ties will not matter, once any of those do, then the system breaks down back to a dictatorship and good olí boy network which will lead to anarchy in the end.
          After high school, young people need real World experience and structuring. The assembly line process of education does not build a quality society, as we well know by our own experience.
          The Armed Forces will be a professional volunteer force, with career personnel augmented by the conscripted youth to ensure full rosters at all levels and all professions.
          Civilian Corps of Engineers and CBnís, will be the same. But much of the manpower will be reservist in nature with monthly drill, training, muster and an annual week long exercise combined with all aspects of National safety and security. Culminating with the celebration of the Nationís independence/birth.
          Air Force: as previously noted, 12 F-16 Fighting Falcons would be lend-leased from the USA, and there would be two pilots per jet assigned. Upon standing up this force, I would seek to enlarge the Air Force to include 12 IA-58 Pucaraís. Along with the 3 C-130ís, 10 Blackhawks and 10 Kiowaís. That should give this small Nation a viable enough Air Force.

          Iíve had second thoughts on the Navy. While I still would acquire the 4 Interceptors and 2 Gumdoksuri Patrol Boats, the manning and authority will under the National Police. The coastline is small enough to be controlled by the 6 boats plus a dozen smaller 35ft Riverine Assault Craft. The RACís would be jointly operated and manned by National Police and Army personnel from the Special Forces Companies. Such a small Nation has no need for a real standing separate Armed Forces branch of the Navy. The mission is to control the sea and waterways from terrorist, smugglers, guerrilla forces. Customs and inspection of goods and ships would naturally fall under the National Police jurisdiction.
          Back to the Army, the force structure would remain the same. The battalion make up would be as stated, four companies per battalion. One company would be air defense, one company heavy weapons, two companies of infantry. Each Battalion HQ will need itís own Company which will serve as the Battalions S1,S2,S3,S4 needs and functions. Brigade HQ can actually then be paired down to one platoon size unit since it will be basically the Brigade CO,XO, and CSM who will be overseeing and controlling the three battalions.
          The HQ from Corps command down to Battalion level would be no more than platoon size. Smaller the better, more mobile and agile. I Corps HQ would be the largest group but it too, organized to break down into small platoon to squad sized units in the event of open war. Think of I Corps as a drop of liquid mercury. You separate it out into parts, itís still mercury, then can roll back into one drop seamlessly. The Division HQís are part of I Corps HQís, they just work and/or are stationed on a separate base. Problem with many commands worldwide is that the HQís become entities of themselves. While independent operational and tactical command is needed at Div HQ, strategic command comes from I Corps HQ.
          All the battalion bases in the Nation will be stationary, but the battalions themselves will rotate every 3 years. Purpose is two one: defeat any complacency, two provide each battalion with knowledge and training of the conditions of that region, i.e. jungle, mountain, desert, urban. During the transition phase one company at a time will move, but simultaneously. One battalion from each Division will be at augmentation bases next to each of the military Air Force bases to provide quick reaction forces.
          As well, since the our C-130ís are provided with UN funds, one battalion will be provided for the UNAMID on a six month rotation. This will provide all Officers and NCOís plus career personnel, real World experience. This battalion would most likely come from one of the augmentation battalions, then rotate out with a battalion from itís Division.
          "Never push the red button" Daffy Duck


          • #20
            This thread has taken off more than I had hoped, a lot of really good ideas a couple of different philosophies.

            I like the idea of the civilian construction units, I think maybe turning the regional units to this with a maybe secondary defensive capability is an option to explore. Focusing on the civil engineering, but still keeping a at least limited military capability in case of emergency would be important. They could also be used in case of a disaster, to clean up, rebuild, and maintain order, much like the National Guard in the US.

            I like the idea of taking the older tanks (after acquiring some sort of replacement), and making them engineering vehicles or something. Even trainers for mechanics to teach principles of maintenance would be majorly helpful.
            Кто там?
            Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
            Tunis is a Carthigenian city!


            • #21
              Some things I thought out so far

              Simple Military training at school, weapon maintenance, construction of shelters, gas masks etc, basic first aid.

              I would also purchase a large amount of air rifles, a cheap training option, preferably Fienwerkbau.I would also declare shooting a national sport, and somewhat as what was done in England with the longbows demand that every male from the age of 12 to 30 shoots at least a certain number of shots per year.

              Further I would issue restrictions on how new building would be constructed so that they effectively can be used as defensive positions. And makes firefighting easier. Naturally depending upon how much funds that are available.

              To tackle unemployment in the cities I would also create construction units, basically those who have no work are used for different kinds of constructions and receive a small payment per day.
              ďFor there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.Ē

              Max Sterner


              • #22
                To continue,

                Officer training is vital. You don't have to send them all off to foreign academies to get the most out of all the money going into new equipment. Send a few of the more scholarly ones to a variety of places, then have them sit down and come up with training method that suits your situation best.
                Politics can get in the way; the more rigid the politics of the Regime, the more officer training will suffer.
                Education is the objective search for the truth. If the free exchange of ideas is restricted, then the officer training will have blind spots.

                I advocate the halving of the size of the Army for several reasons.
                Military units tend to have a certain personality, like people do. They can retain it even after years and 100% changes in personnel.
                Weed out the bad ones, Companies are the smallest units to be gotten rid of in this manner.
                Of course, You could have 5-10% of the troops from those units that should be retained, those can be used to fill the ranks in beter units that are below strength.

                Now, it is tempting to have 3 uniform Brigades, but you have two very different danger zones. You have a desert up north, and a Jungle to the south. The threat in the North could be anything from a conventional attack to an insurgency, in the south it seems more like a steady stream of chaos.
                So, I recommend light Infantry in the south, Heavy Infantry/Artillery/limited fortifications in the North.
                In the middle, you have your Mechanized Brigade where your Armor and new vehicles are concentrated.

                Now, my idea of a Brigade is different from what most people seem to think. IMHO- it's silly to call a Regiment a Brigade, which is what the US Army does now. A Brigade is half a Division.
                This means 3 Infantry Battalions and 2 Armored or Heavy weapons Battalions. That's 3,000 grunts and over 100 tanks/big guns.

                You have 155mm guns, good! Somebody made a serious investment. Last I looked, the rounds cost 1,000-2,000 dollars each, its probably gone up since then.
                China makes a 155mm gun for export, if money is running short and your guns are wearing out, you might want to look into that.
                The most important aspect of artillery is Fire Direction. You MUST make this a prestige post to attract that best men. For one tenth the price of aircraft you can bring ten times the firepower down on any target within the range of your guns.

                good enough for now?


                • #23
                  I will add a few more parameters and expand on others as they have come up in the conversation.

                  The country has some mineral wealth. In the north there is a small amount of oil, though not extensive it is present, but yet to be truly tapped into. It is far enough away from the somewhat disputed border so the northern neighbor really has no claim on them at all. Diamonds have been mined for years in the south, though not in an extensive or really organized manner. With the Diamonds there is also large deposits of coal, that were mined in the colonial days but since independence it has barley been touched. There are also rubber trees in the south.

                  The main threat at this time is smuggling along the river to and from the chaotic country, human trafficking, blood diamonds, weapons, and money transit the river almost unimpeded.

                  Politically the country is stable along tribal and religious lines. The country is mostly Catholic, with other denominations missionaries working in earnest in the country. The population mostly belong to the same tribal back ground with an ethnic Arab minority in the North that lives a almost autonomous nomadic lifestyle often between both countries. (think Bedouin) While technically most are citizens and subject to conscription they are usually completely ignored for this purpose. A very small percentage of them volunteer for the military to escape the nomadic lifestyle. They are docile and pose no threat to security.

                  At times refugees and transplants from other countries cause clashes, though this is rare. In the bush banditry is a bit of a problem, and bandits have begun to attack smuggling operations on the river. (River - think Zambezi)

                  There are small radical political factions, 3 Marxist groups that compete with themselves and 1 nationalist group that is in favor of returning the tribal monarchy, with their leader as the monarch of course. While these groups are very minor, if the nation doesn't start to turn for the better, they could grow in popularity and add to instability.

                  Most of the population in the bush is ignorant to politics and focus on their lives. In the capital and other larger city politics play a major role and there are 3 political parties based on the UK's (their former colonial master)

                  This should give a better thought process to some points
                  Кто там?
                  Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                  Tunis is a Carthigenian city!


                  • #24
                    Officer training is vital. You don't have to send them all off to foreign academies to get the most out of all the money going into new equipment. Send a few of the more scholarly ones to a variety of places, then have them sit down and come up with training method that suits your situation best.
                    Politics can get in the way; the more rigid the politics of the Regime, the more officer training will suffer.
                    Education is the objective search for the truth. If the free exchange of ideas is restricted, then the officer training will have blind spots.
                    I'd do this only, and only if, I could ensure that these officers do not attend any sort of liberal arts / Western / Leftist education whatsoever (eg., liberal arts universities). The last thing I want is for them to get Leftist political ideas and become radicalized by those ideas. They would create massive problems when they come home.
                    Better to import the training than export the officers.

                    As to the new info:

                    Smuggling is a problem and probably cannot be completely stopped. I would think instituting a paramilitary border police out of one of the existing "brigades" would help here. Equip it more as light infantry and set up permanent border posts for it to operate out of. Communications like cell and land line phones would have to be made available.
                    Aggressive patrolling and giving members of the unit a monitary reward for capturing smugglers and their cargo and turning it in to proper authorities would cut down on bribes and corruption while encouraging the unit to perform well.

                    The paramilitary civil engineering units I proposed would be able to help most of the undeveloped parts of the country. I would mix them up such that they were formed on regional, ethnic, and other lines. The units would then be sent (with full knowledge of why) to other parts of the country they were not from. The purpose in this is to homogenize the population more and also set up a competition. Each unit would know that back home there is some similar unit from where they now were doing what they were doing. Unit progress and such would be tracked to whatever degree it could be and reported. That is, local leaders and the unit leaders would know that the other unit is performing better or worse than they and that will in turn reflect locally and at home on them.

                    I would still try and bring in as many foreign advisors, engineers, and companies as possible. If the UN can be brought in for peacekeeping on the troubled border I'd do that too. The more foreign nations in the country the less likely the neighbors will bother me. After all, if they do they involve themselves with the problem of all these foreign persons now crying to their home countries for protection.


                    • #25

                      If your Northern ethnic groups are Bedou, you should look into recruiting them for a Long Range Desert Group type unit or two. You might have to import some Southerners to drive and maintain the vehicles. I would encourage recruitment with these types. They know the area. The income will be a boost to the economy. The trouble could be finding NCO's and Officers among them.

                      There is no clear cut answer to the large smuggling systems in the South. To succeed, the locals have to be in the system and how often do clan/tribal members sell each other out? To stop the Slave trade you have to interdict it before it gets to the River in the South. With the trucking system in Africa, how often are loads on trucks inspected?

                      Many years ago the French tried to get the Bedou to send the high born sons in to get an education and learn the "system". The Fathers wanted to keep there sons by their knee and train them themselves. What happened? The Bedouin Sheiks sent the sons of the Slaves to school and kept their sons home. When the countries were given independence, guess who were trained to run the country?

                      The Catholics in the South would be a source for Infantry and Armor as they should be better educated. Bandits in the Bush are great live teaching aids in training Infantry. A Police unit or two would also be good (such as South African Police, Kings African Rifles. The British had many such Police units in their colonial system. The US had a number of Philippine Scouts in the Police role as well.

                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"


                      • #26
                        This is starting to sound like Chad....

                        That probably means the taxes are too high, you might want to look into that. Shooting the more corrupt half of the bureaucracy could have a wonderful effect on morale and efficiency.

                        I am going to stick to my path; 3 Brigades (6-8k men each), 12 Harriers, minimal Helicopters, 155mm artillery and retention & improvement of the Territorials.

                        The River is something that needs work ... but I was thinking in terms of boats that can be put on trailers and transported overland with ease.
                        Mining certain parts of the river might be a workable option, if there are small, safe aquatic mines available somewhere.
                        More useful might be a small number of Hovercraft. Rivers in Africa often mean huge swamps. Hovercraft also have the advantage of land travel and won't set off mines in most cases, on land or water.

                        Mines of all sorts are very useful, especially to a military who's focus is on defense. A specialized Company in each brigade could be the best investment of all.

                        If the troops morale' is in need of a big boost, few things work as well as a large, efficient medical establishment. Make sure that they will treat anyone, Bedouin or Tribal or whatever, the same way.
                        Few 18 year-old troopers fear death, but the idea of being mangled and then left to die can turn anyone into a coward.


                        • #27

                          One thing you have to remember is the Harrier has one of the highest accident rates of any aircraft in military use. After thinking of this I was reminded of how a guy playing Golf in Benin shot down his nation's whole Air Force with one golf ball.

                          The Benin aircraft were practicing flying close formation and went over the Golf Course. One Golf ball in the intake of one jet trainer caused a chain reaction that made them all crash. I wonder if they have let him out of jail yet?

                          Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                          Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                          by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"


                          • #28
                            Yes, I know, but accident rates can be managed with good training, and after 40 years the US and UK should have learned how to minimize accidents... right?

                            Simple math for the nation; with the harriers, you would only need one or two additional airfields. Otherwise, you need perhaps half a dozen new ones.
                            That's IF you go with fixed wing aircraft at all. I see my competing advisors think that an all-rotary wing AF would be the way to go.
                            However... the accident rates for Helos are a minor issue. Not by a long shot.


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Stryker 19K30 View Post
                              I will add a few more parameters and expand on others as they have come up in the conversation.
                              In the words of Elaine Benes ala Seinfeld..."That's just grrreate!!"

                              Now I have to think of more stuff.
                              "Never push the red button" Daffy Duck


                              • #30

                                I don't like the idea of giving monetary rewards to units for doing their job, this could also lead to over zealousness, false reports of seizures and corruption. Though an institution of awards and medals for this task would be a good plan. It adds to the esprit de corps and gives a sense of pride for accomplishing goals.

                                I think making an appeal to the UN about the smuggling focusing on the human trafficking angel could bring aid, but just those 2 letters wreak of corruption.

                                I like the Harrier idea, lessens the need for improved airfields, though that is a major investment as that type of flying is even harder to train.

                                I would look at training some of the Arab volunteers as some sort of desert operations cadre, and some sort of scout unit, as they know the area in the north very well.

                                more later
                                Кто там?
                                Это я - Почтальон Печкин!
                                Tunis is a Carthigenian city!


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