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1990s Serbs moderate Yugoslav expansion

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  • 1990s Serbs moderate Yugoslav expansion

    Assume that in the 1990s Milosovec et. al.:
    1) eschew atrocities against non-serb peoples (but while
    still ethnically cleansing border areas by driving people in
    buses, walking, etc. to non-serb sections/countries
    2) Stop when taking control of contiguous, generally
    ethnic Serb areas (about half of Bosnia, 15-20 % of
    Croatia) and, presumably, Kosovo and Macedonia.

    While distasteful to Europeans and Americans, might this
    "racially pure" state have been threatened by no more
    then some trade embargoes? I've always found it curious
    that the Serbs seemed to have gone out of their way to
    provoke internal (old Yugoslavia) and outside opposition by
    being so radical in treating other ethnic groups.

    This reocurred to me when reading the alternate Japanese Empire thread.

  • #2
    If Kosovo, Macedonia, and Montenegro are ruled by a Serb dominated state, expect their to still be troubles.

    And do you think all non-Serbs would gladly get on buses and leave their homes. I wouldn't wan't to.
    ´
    “You need to help people. I know it's not very Republican to say but you need to help people.” DONALD TRUMP, 2016

    Comment


    • #3
      Your forgetting that aggression during the war wasn't limited to Serbia. Tudman was also looking to increase hzis new states power and the Bosniaks (I use this term as it is recognised to mean the Bosnian Muslims now) would fight to defend their homes just the same.

      Kosovo would still have the same outcome and Vojvodina and Montenegro were pro-serbia anyhow. Macedonia was a different matter though im not sure. Were the Macedonians more peaceful in their breakaway. Their land being more or less homogenous other thzan the albanians in the North and west?

      Comment


      • #4
        Serbs have lost the war already in 1990,before first shoots were fired,when Milosevic refused to pay USA media houses to report positively on him...Otherwise they would represent Croats and Muslims as bad guys and rebels (instead of Serbs),and in couple of weeks or months Yugoslavia would be restored,as JNA would have upper hand to attack them deliberately.
        It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

        Косово је Србија!
        Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

        Armored Brigade

        Armored Brigade Facebook page

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Anglopole View Post
          Your forgetting that aggression during the war wasn't limited to Serbia. Tudman was also looking to increase hzis new states power and the Bosniaks (I use this term as it is recognised to mean the Bosnian Muslims now) would fight to defend their homes just the same.
          Without Western help,both Boshnjaks and Croats would have been obliterated with full JNA fire power unleashed against them.
          JNA officers,my father included,secretly lamented that their hand were tied from Belgrade.By late 1991,Miloshevic have understood that restoring SFRJ was impossible,and he started to consider Greater Serbia idea,expanding Serbian border and limiting Croatia to small sized country,like Slovenia.
          Slovenians took a very cautions way to proclamation of independence,and politicly they were clean,so once proclaimed,they were safe diplomaticly.

          Kosovo would still have the same outcome and Vojvodina and Montenegro were pro-serbia anyhow. Macedonia was a different matter though im not sure. Were the Macedonians more peaceful in their breakaway. Their land being more or less homogenous other thzan the albanians in the North and west?
          If Croatian campaign went successful,Macedonian would never got "nuts" to separate.Technically their independence was temporal,because their signed that they will re-join Yugoslavia if restored

          Kosovo...without international attention...it would be part of Serbia.
          It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

          Косово је Србија!
          Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

          Armored Brigade

          Armored Brigade Facebook page

          Comment


          • #6
            True... the "USA media house" is run by the Italian Mafia.

            Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
            Serbs have lost the war already in 1990,before first shoots were fired,when Milosevic refused to pay USA media houses to report positively on him...Otherwise they would represent Croats and Muslims as bad guys and rebels (instead of Serbs),and in couple of weeks or months Yugoslavia would be restored,as JNA would have upper hand to attack them deliberately.
            My worst jump story:
            My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
            As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
            No lie.

            ~
            "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
            -2 Commando Jumpmaster

            Comment


            • #7
              The root cause of the war was preservation of the Yugoslavian state.... the net effect was a brutal war to include atrocities from all involved. I can tell you from personal experience that the numbers reported killed by ethnic cleansing was exaggerated.

              Originally posted by Tuor View Post
              Assume that in the 1990s Milosovec et. al.:
              1) eschew atrocities against non-serb peoples (but while
              still ethnically cleansing border areas by driving people in
              buses, walking, etc. to non-serb sections/countries
              2) Stop when taking control of contiguous, generally
              ethnic Serb areas (about half of Bosnia, 15-20 % of
              Croatia) and, presumably, Kosovo and Macedonia.

              While distasteful to Europeans and Americans, might this
              "racially pure" state have been threatened by no more
              then some trade embargoes? I've always found it curious
              that the Serbs seemed to have gone out of their way to
              provoke internal (old Yugoslavia) and outside opposition by
              being so radical in treating other ethnic groups.

              This reocurred to me when reading the alternate Japanese Empire thread.
              My worst jump story:
              My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
              As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
              No lie.

              ~
              "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
              -2 Commando Jumpmaster

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 101combatvet View Post
                The root cause of the war was preservation of the Yugoslavian state.... the net effect was a brutal war to include atrocities from all involved. I can tell you from personal experience that the numbers reported killed by ethnic cleansing was exaggerated.
                The Yugoslav wars were still the bloodiest European wars since WWII, with casualty counts running in the low hundred thousands if you combine the casualty rates of all of the wars there since the death of Tito. But what should one expect from the Balkans? That region has been one of Europe's primary sources of violence and other assorted problems since the 1800's.

                Hell, practically everything bad that has happened on the international scene in the 20th century up until 1991 can be blamed on the serbs/yugoslavs, Gravilo's little pull of the trigger cascaded into WW1, which lead to the great depression and the rise of communism, which lead to ww2, which lead to the cold war, which lead to the korean war, the soviet-afghan war, and the vietnam war, the last of which started the hippie movement.

                That kiddies, is Serbia/Yugoslavia's legacy, violence and misery.

                Disclaimer: No offense to any members on this site from the countries that made up former yugoslavia.

                More on-topic, NATO would still not be pleased with Serbia in your scenario, and a universal trade embargo from the entirety of NATO (which is a pretty damned big organization) would do much to hurt Serbia. However, the crimes committed by either side in those wars were not all government sponsored, many of them were comitted by violently xenophobic joe schmoe's on both sides, if Racial tensions aren't solved in your scenario, some violence is inevitable, and some violence can always escalate into a full scale war.
                Standing here, I realize you were just like me trying to make history.
                But who's to judge the right from wrong.
                When our guard is down I think we'll both agree.
                That violence breeds violence.
                But in the end it has to be this way.

                Comment


                • #9
                  As Winston Churchill said: “The Balkans produce more history than they can consume”

                  No worries Czin,I know it's Serbian/Yugoslav bloody legacy
                  But hell any invasion,it seems, before enslaving Europe has to stumble at the Serbian doorstep.Mongols,Catholics,Turks,Germans,Communism ....After so much blood spilled in that land,what else can you expect?
                  It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

                  Косово је Србија!
                  Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

                  Armored Brigade

                  Armored Brigade Facebook page

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
                    As Winston Churchill said: “The Balkans produce more history than they can consume”

                    No worries Czin,I know it's Serbian/Yugoslav bloody legacy
                    But hell any invasion,it seems, before enslaving Europe has to stumble at the Serbian doorstep.Mongols,Catholics,Turks,Germans,Communism ....After so much blood spilled in that land,what else can you expect?
                    They seem to have mellowed out now, thank goodness for that I say.
                    Standing here, I realize you were just like me trying to make history.
                    But who's to judge the right from wrong.
                    When our guard is down I think we'll both agree.
                    That violence breeds violence.
                    But in the end it has to be this way.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Don't forget the medievil Bosnian state 1180-1463, Ottoman period 1463-1606, Islamicization, Ottoman 1606-1815, reform period 1815-1878 and the Austro-Hungarian period 1878-1914.

                      Originally posted by Czin View Post
                      Hell, practically everything bad that has happened on the international scene in the 20th century up until 1991 can be blamed on the serbs/yugoslavs, Gravilo's little pull of the trigger cascaded into WW1, which lead to the great depression and the rise of communism, which lead to ww2, which lead to the cold war, which lead to the korean war, the soviet-afghan war, and the vietnam war, the last of which started the hippie movement.
                      My worst jump story:
                      My 13th jump was on the 13th day of the month, aircraft number 013.
                      As recorded on my DA Form 1307 Individual Jump Log.
                      No lie.

                      ~
                      "Everything looks all right. Have a good jump, eh."
                      -2 Commando Jumpmaster

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The root cause of the war was preservation of the Yugoslavian state.... the net effect was a brutal war to include atrocities from all involved. I can tell you from personal experience that the numbers reported killed by ethnic cleansing was exaggerated.
                        Sure you can, the same way that the hobo down at the pier can tell me all about how the illuminati planted reptillian eggs in his brain, all from 'personal experience' of course.
                        "They're inviting us to defeat them! We must oblige them!"
                        -Baron Munchausen

                        "Ah, 'tis midsummer madness, the music is my temples, the hot blood of youth! Come, Kapellmeister, let the violas throb. My regiment leaves at dawn!"
                        -Groucho Marx

                        Comment

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