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Greco-Turkish War 1974 splits NATO

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  • piero1971
    replied
    Originally posted by nastle View Post
    But if it did, whats the likelihood that the soviets would encourage a leftist anti-fascist revolution in Greece ? It certainly would have a lot of sentimental appeal for the other slavic states in WP. And in this case maybe the soviets would even tolerate the greek orthodox religious establishment

    they would definitely encourage it as they did in OTL - the Greek Communist party, as all communist party were heavyly funded (and armed in some cases) by the USSR (or satellites)

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  • nastle
    replied
    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
    very plausible indeed. hence the US not letting the conflict escalate.
    But if it did, whats the likelihood that the soviets would encourage a leftist anti-fascist revolution in Greece ? It certainly would have a lot of sentimental appeal for the other slavic states in WP. And in this case maybe the soviets would even tolerate the greek orthodox religious establishment

    Leave a comment:


  • Czin
    replied
    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
    1. when did legitimacy ever concern the US and it's NATO toy?
    2. not similarly equipped and certainly not similarly trained ans disciplined (we might want to check 1974 forces training levels, but I think that greek operations near Turkish coastline would be for a severe trashing)
    2. expansionist, shpansionist... the turks would say exactly the opposite... what I say is that the what if here is not super plausible because you have to remeber who decides in and owns NATO (the USA) and it's against their interest that a petty squabble over Cyprus spills into something bigger. if it does, the US needs Turkey 1000 tmes more than it needs Greece, and so will tell it's greek puppets to play it down or face a. communist take over and possible trial and execution or b. coup by more friendly disposed leaders...
    ny two drachmes at least..
    But...but...weren't drachme's worth a lot compared to today's money?

    Turkey can easily absorb and replace losses due to it's large population and wealth, Greece unfortunately, is outnumbered six to one in population and has a significantly smaller gdp, which means that Turkey can use "Choke on our dead!" Tactics with impunity until Greece's ability to resist is completely eroded. As every other nation greece shares a border with is communist, Greece has no chance of reinforcement, so the Hellenes can more or less kiss their freedom goodbye.

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  • piero1971
    replied
    Originally posted by nastle View Post
    historically greek claims to these lands are more legitimate then turkish claims

    .
    greeks and turks are similarly equipped, i hardly think that the turks will be able to score an overwhelming victory against the greeks.The side that runs of out spares will cave in first.


    The size of armed forces of both countries is about the same ( not counting the army ).
    Are you saying that US and rest of NATO will totally disregard greek claims and side with turkey and its expansionist agenda

    1. when did legitimacy ever concern the US and it's NATO toy?
    2. not similarly equipped and certainly not similarly trained ans disciplined (we might want to check 1974 forces training levels, but I think that greek operations near Turkish coastline would be for a severe trashing)
    2. expansionist, shpansionist... the turks would say exactly the opposite... what I say is that the what if here is not super plausible because you have to remeber who decides in and owns NATO (the USA) and it's against their interest that a petty squabble over Cyprus spills into something bigger. if it does, the US needs Turkey 1000 tmes more than it needs Greece, and so will tell it's greek puppets to play it down or face a. communist take over and possible trial and execution or b. coup by more friendly disposed leaders...
    ny two drachmes at least..

    Leave a comment:


  • piero1971
    replied
    Originally posted by nastle View Post
    Thats an interesting thought, if we reverse my WI scenario.The Turks score impressive victories in the early stages of the campaign the right-wing greek dictatorship collapses and the greece goes communist.
    very plausible indeed. hence the US not letting the conflict escalate.

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  • Czin
    replied
    Originally posted by Wolery View Post
    Elan. Basically the Turks have a long reputation as bloodthirsty, but disciplined savages (I'm not going to dispute that either), plus Turkey is more populous by far and is more strategic. Morally, one should side with Greeks, but in the Cold War, Turkey is more important.

    A war would be disastrous. If the Greeks could win and ethnically cleanse Western Anatolia and Thrace and Cyprus of Turks, that would be beyond awesome, but the US will never acquiesce to that magnitude of population exchange. The Turks will be dealt with in the Ragnarok, and if the Greeks survive, they will get all their lands back. Till then, best to wait.
    Turkey's army is one of the largest and most modern in all of europe, and it is certainly the finest military in the middle east, neither Iran nor Israel or even Iraq at their peak ever possessed an army that was both larger and more modern (while Iraq and Iran's armies were/are bigger they are not more modern, and while Israel may have a more modern military, it's a good deal smaller.) This is probably because Turkey is blessed with a large population and very deep pockets (for a middle eastern country anyway.) I'm not so sure about Turkey's 1974 statistics, but I suspect that it was more of the same.

    But once Yugoslavia joins Turkey in the war against Greece, I suspect that Greece's fate will be very rapidly sealed, especially if the socialist republics of Bulgaria and Albania join in on the fun. N.A.T.O would not risk a war over Greece (Let's face it, N.A.T.O would probably only go to war over the biggest nations in western Europe and North America, the others were never terribly important and were almost certainly considered expendable.)

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  • Wolery
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    I may be alone in this, but the Turkish Army never really impressed me. Why is it so highly rated?
    Elan. Basically the Turks have a long reputation as bloodthirsty, but disciplined savages (I'm not going to dispute that either), plus Turkey is more populous by far and is more strategic. Morally, one should side with Greeks, but in the Cold War, Turkey is more important.

    A war would be disastrous. If the Greeks could win and ethnically cleanse Western Anatolia and Thrace and Cyprus of Turks, that would be beyond awesome, but the US will never acquiesce to that magnitude of population exchange. The Turks will be dealt with in the Ragnarok, and if the Greeks survive, they will get all their lands back. Till then, best to wait.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redwolf
    replied
    It is not likely that Turkey would be labeled the bad guy in such a conflict, at least not badly enough for NATO to fight Turkey.

    That would be based on fact (the Greeks don't have a clean record in their dealings with Turkey) and on importance. Turkey was (and is) far more important to NATO than Greece.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    A swift, successful Turkish move would have ended the whole controversy before it could get started.
    But that never came close to happening.

    I may be alone in this, but the Turkish Army never really impressed me. Why is it so highly rated?

    Leave a comment:


  • nastle
    replied
    Originally posted by Czin View Post
    Yugoslavia will take this opportunity to "spread the glory of communism" to their hellenistic brothers in Greece. Once Greece becomes a people's democratic socialist republic, NATO will have no footholds in that region of the world and will probably back down.

    .
    Thats an interesting thought, if we reverse my WI scenario.The Turks score impressive victories in the early stages of the campaign the right-wing greek dictatorship collapses and the greece goes communist.

    Leave a comment:


  • nastle
    replied
    why do you assume that NATO sides with the small, irrelevant Greek state while Turkey is a major strategic NATO member?
    historically greek claims to these lands are more legitimate then turkish claims

    I'd be suprised if the Greeks hold anything.. and I'd surely bet on NATO to put massive pressure on Greece to ceize hostilities... especially after some of it's navy and air force are shot out
    .
    greeks and turks are similarly equipped, i hardly think that the turks will be able to score an overwhelming victory against the greeks.The side that runs of out spares will cave in first.

    Greece was only important to the USA for not ecoming communist, not as a strong NATO member. Turkey was a key element of NATO. still is
    The size of armed forces of both countries is about the same ( not counting the army ).
    Are you saying that US and rest of NATO will totally disregard greek claims and side with turkey and its expansionist agenda

    Leave a comment:


  • piero1971
    replied
    why do you assume that NATO sides with the small, irrelevant Greek state while Turkey is a major strategic NATO member?

    well, as both armies and governments are more or less US controlled at the time through subventions and corruption... the agreement to leave the Cyprus affair would keep.. if not.. if Turkey and Greece would go on an all out fight... I'd be suprised if the Greeks hold anything.. and I'd surely bet on NATO to put massive pressure on Greece to ceize hostilities... especially after some of it's navy and air force are shot out.

    Greece was only important to the USA for not becoming communist, not as a strong NATO member. Turkey was a key element of NATO. still is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Czin
    replied
    Yugoslavia will take this opportunity to "spread the glory of communism" to their hellenistic brothers in Greece. Once Greece becomes a people's democratic socialist republic, NATO will have no footholds in that region of the world and will probably back down.

    Turkey will benefit from joining the eastern bloc as they would have a whole bunch of new friends that are very close to them, such as Syria and Bulgaria, but they will lose their old western trading partners, which will hurt them. With this victory, the reds will be one step closer to winning the cold war, which would obviously screw us all over.

    Leave a comment:


  • nastle
    started a topic Greco-Turkish War 1974 splits NATO

    Greco-Turkish War 1974 splits NATO

    The Turkish invasion of cyprus, the greeks respond by declaring full-scale war.NATO seeing turks as the aggressors put an arms embargo on turkey to force them to withdraw.Not pleased with the response they get, Turkey leaves NATO and asks USSR for military aid.

    Implications ? Do the turks really have a lot to gain from going in the soviet camp ( their historical enemies) ? but in the past on occasions they have turned to them for help ( like in the greco-turkish war of 1922).

    Soviets will be more than willing to help expansionists turkish ambitions if it weakens NATO
    Turks will see little benefit in staying in NATO if it supports its historical enemy Greece

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