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Communism triumphs in Germany 1919

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  • Communism triumphs in Germany 1919

    With the war lost, economy in shambles and a huge mass of unemployed workers and soldiers, germany is ripe for a revolution.

    What would be the possible consequences and effect the present day world.
    Last edited by nastle; 21 Jul 10, 08:17.

  • #2
    Originally posted by nastle View Post
    With the war lost, economy in shambles and a huge mass of unemployed workers and soldiers, germany is ripe for a revolution.

    What would be the possible consequences and effect the present day world.
    You end up with a massive and bloody Civil War, with plenty of intervention from other powers. For instance Poland would now be surrounded by Communist governments and would almost certainly react to said situation, possibly looking to grab territory in East Prussia while the German Civil War rages. Other nations, like France and the UK, would almost certainly send in troops and aid to those fighting the Communist government.

    Indeed, I doubt such a government could have lasted for long, but while it did it would cause plenty of further devastation within Germany.

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    • #3
      Bavaria did have a Communist government briefly. Hungary had a coalition of leftist partys for a bit longer. Both faded out without much bloodshed. Just the usual riots, assasinations, and a prison execution or two.

      A German Communist government is just as likely as the centerist parties of the Weinmar Republic to dodge repatrations payments & other obligations of the Versailles treaty, which gives France, Belgium & the others a excuse to send the soldiers back across the Rhine. In this case the leftists in power could bring Britain to support France, rather than fail as it did historically.

      As the dust settles Hitlers National Socialist Workers Party is unlikely to survive the suppresion of any any group calling itself socialist. If the world is lucky Hitlers dies in a street fight or a prison execution yard.

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      • #4
        Maybe scharnhorst like reforms of german army, end of prussian domination and stronger soviet-german axis ?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
          As the dust settles Hitlers National Socialist Workers Party is unlikely to survive the suppresion of any any group calling itself socialist. If the world is lucky Hitlers dies in a street fight or a prison execution yard.
          The NSDAP was right-wing and anti-communist from the outset, and would almost assuredly have been a member of whatever coalition opposed the communists.

          EDIT: didn't British unions put a stop to support for the Russian Whites? And wasn't war-weariness enough to make Britain and France leave Turkey alone?
          Reaction to the 2016 Munich shootings:
          Europe: "We are shocked and support you in these harsh times, we stand by you."
          USA: "We will check people from Germany extra-hard and it is your own damn fault for being so stupid."

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          • #6
            A veritable can of worms.
            First, who would be leading this German Communist Republic - Leibknecht or Luxembourg. Intellectually, Luxembourg was the clear superior of the two - but it is one thing to have Polish Jewess leader of the parliamentary faction - another to have her as head of state. So, chances are - just for decorum's sake - that Leibknecht would end up becoming the head of state - which would not bode well for either the German Communist Republic or its neighbours, as Leibknecht tended to be impulsive, rash and headstrong. It would very likely be within Leibknecht's frame of mind to effect some sort of direct physical contact with the Bolshevik government in Russia and the revolutionary government of Kun in Hungary - thus, chances are that some sort of direct attack on Poland would transpire. Poland, on the other hand, facing a Communist government in Russia and now one in Germany, would very likely have abandoned it's ideas of invading the Ukraine while the Bolsheviks were occupied with the Whites and would focus more upon its immediate borders. Making use of the claim that the government of Germany is no longer the one which agreed to the armistice, any so-called agreements regarding the borders in Silesia and East and West Prussia are no longer extant. Chances are, the Poles would immediately try to seize the industrial regions of Silesia as well as Allenstein in Eastern Prussia. Either way, direct military conflict between Poland and Communist Germany would be very difficult to avoid.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by skoblin View Post
              Chances are, the Poles would immediately try to seize the industrial regions of Silesia as well as Allenstein in Eastern Prussia. Either way, direct military conflict between Poland and Communist Germany would be very difficult to avoid.
              Agreed, although it would be tough for Poland, who at this same time (early 1920s) is engaged in a war with the Soviet Union as well. Thus if the new German Communist government sought "solidarity" with their fellow revolutionaries they might declare war on Poland (or vice versa) which would lead to Poland being engaged in a two-front war.

              The Allies wouldn't take too kindly to Germany engaged in military action so soon after WW1, but on the other hand the support for any serious military action would be slim. You might have French soldiers occupy more of the Rhineland and/or British warships blockading German ports as punishment, but I doubt it would lead to an immediate continuation of the world war.

              The real problem I see for a Communist Germany is the large numbers of Reactionary groups within Germany at the time. The Freikorps especially would prove to be a tenacious enemy for a revolutionary Socialist government, and with their ties to the Army the German government would have to rely on Workers Militias and the like to deal with internal dissent and prosecute a war against Poland.

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              • #8
                The powers that were in the United States would have looked very unkindly on a communist Germany. Just look at how unkindly the looked at such developments in Russia. They would have used military force on Germany and economic leverage on France, Britain, etc. to put it down. This actually could have been a good thing, as a real occupation of Germany after World War One may very well have prevented the rise of Nazi Germany. No doubt Germany would have been used as a balance against the USSR, as West Germany was after WW II. This time, of course, Germany would be physically larger and further east than West Germany was after World War II.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                  Agreed, although it would be tough for Poland, who at this same time (early 1920s) is engaged in a war with the Soviet Union as well. Thus if the new German Communist government sought "solidarity" with their fellow revolutionaries they might declare war on Poland (or vice versa) which would lead to Poland being engaged in a two-front war.
                  Agreed, which is why I mentioned: "facing a Communist government in Russia and now one in Germany, [Poland] would very likely have abandoned it's ideas of invading the Ukraine while the Bolsheviks were occupied with the Whites and would focus more upon its immediate borders." In other words, if Germany went Communist in 1919, chances are that Poland would not initiate the war which it started with the Bolsheviks that same year.

                  Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                  The Allies wouldn't take too kindly to Germany engaged in military action so soon after WW1, but on the other hand the support for any serious military action would be slim. You might have French soldiers occupy more of the Rhineland and/or British warships blockading German ports as punishment, but I doubt it would lead to an immediate continuation of the world war.
                  Probably the case. Both the populations of France and England were quite war-weary at the time and many units of the respective armed forces were downright mutinous. Despite the willingness of the some of the more hawkish members of either government, it would be a hard sell to get the population on side. That side, chances are that it would be easier for the French government and - frankly speaking - facing the loss of Poland, which the French government had counted on as one of the lynch-pins of its new Eastern European alliance system, the French would have little choice but to intervene - and seize more German territory.

                  Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                  The real problem I see for a Communist Germany is the large numbers of Reactionary groups within Germany at the time. The Freikorps especially would prove to be a tenacious enemy for a revolutionary Socialist government, and with their ties to the Army the German government would have to rely on Workers Militias and the like to deal with internal dissent and prosecute a war against Poland.
                  The position of the Freikorps would be curious to say the least. Being both anti-socialist and anti-Polish, they would face a dilemma of sorts if a new German Communist government were to attack Poland.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skoblin View Post
                    The position of the Freikorps would be curious to say the least. Being both anti-socialist and anti-Polish, they would face a dilemma of sorts if a new German Communist government were to attack Poland.
                    True, but I imagine that many of them would not side with the current government, especially if Germany were to instigate the war. However, if it were Poland that started the war (perhaps hoping to grab Eastern Prussia during a German Civil-War) then I could see the Freikorps fighting the Poles. But unless it was Germany being attacked, I think they would stay solidly in the opposition/resistance realm.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                      True, but I imagine that many of them would not side with the current government, especially if Germany were to instigate the war. However, if it were Poland that started the war (perhaps hoping to grab Eastern Prussia during a German Civil-War) then I could see the Freikorps fighting the Poles. But unless it was Germany being attacked, I think they would stay solidly in the opposition/resistance realm.
                      Well....who's to say...patriotism makes strange bedfellows.....

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by nastle View Post
                        With the war lost, economy in shambles and a huge mass of unemployed workers and soldiers, germany is ripe for a revolution.

                        What would be the possible consequences and effect the present day world.
                        I just had a look at this thread, and can I say "EeeeK!"

                        The Poles would certainly be in a very uncomfortable position, and might have received more substantial French military aid after their independence. Due to the unusual nature of administration within the Second Reich, while a Communist revolution may have succeeded in Berlin and Munich (and thus making some of Prussia and Bavaria Communist, I don't know if all of Germany would have gone Communist. I can see East Prussia becoming a haven for dispossessed Junkers, and possibly an uneasy ally of Poland. The Rhineland (occupied by Allied troops until 1930 in our world) is probably another enclave of capitalist Germany.

                        I can't see the German communists having too much truck with Lenin. Rosa Luxemburg, by 1918, was sick of Lenin's dictates and would probably not have allowed the terror and repression the Bolsheviks resorted to become part of the German repertoire. So we get to see a kinder, gentler communism. They might have tried to export it to Belgium (just kidding), or encouraged a similar revolution in Austria.

                        I can't see the Poles making a land-grab in the confusion. They had enough problems getting everything organised at home, and targeted those parts of the Ukraine that used to be part of the old Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth (not their brightest moment).

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                        • #13
                          I just had a look at this thread, and can I say "EeeeK!"
                          do I get 5 stars for the shock value ?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by broderickwells View Post
                            I can see East Prussia becoming a haven for dispossessed Junkers, and possibly an uneasy ally of Poland. The Rhineland (occupied by Allied troops until 1930 in our world) is probably another enclave of capitalist Germany.

                            I can't see the German communists having too much truck with Lenin. Rosa Luxemburg, by 1918, was sick of Lenin's dictates and would probably not have allowed the terror and repression the Bolsheviks resorted to become part of the German repertoire. So we get to see a kinder, gentler communism. They might have tried to export it to Belgium (just kidding), or encouraged a similar revolution in Austria.

                            I can't see the Poles making a land-grab in the confusion. They had enough problems getting everything organised at home, and targeted those parts of the Ukraine that used to be part of the old Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth (not their brightest moment).
                            The german communists would still use the nationalistic feelings of german people.A joint attack of Poland by germany and Russia seems very much a possibility.Although in this case the French and British might be better positioned to help the Poles.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                              Bavaria did have a Communist government briefly. Hungary had a coalition of leftist partys for a bit longer. Both faded out without much bloodshed. Just the usual riots, assasinations, and a prison execution or two.

                              A German Communist government is just as likely as the centerist parties of the Weinmar Republic to dodge repatrations payments & other obligations of the Versailles treaty, which gives France, Belgium & the others a excuse to send the soldiers back across the Rhine. In this case the leftists in power could bring Britain to support France, rather than fail as it did historically.

                              As the dust settles Hitlers National Socialist Workers Party is unlikely to survive the suppresion of any any group calling itself socialist. If the world is lucky Hitlers dies in a street fight or a prison execution yard.
                              my exact thoughts. German communists end up slaughtered big time by foreign intervention. but France and Britain are extremely destabilized.
                              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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