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Suppose Hitler Never Invades Russia

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Vaclav View Post
    Wrong!

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p135_Weber.html


    "Much has already been written about Roosevelt's campaign of deception and outright lies in getting the United States to intervene in the Second World War prior to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941. Roosevelt's aid to Britain and the Soviet Union in violation of American neutrality and international law, his acts of war against Germany in the Atlantic in an effort to provoke a German declaration of war against the United States, his authorization of a vast "dirty tricks" campaign against U.S. citizens by British intelligence agents in violation of the Constitution, and his provocations and ultimatums against Japan which brought on the attack against Pearl Harbor -- all this is extensively documented and reasonably well known.[1]"
    You are really asking for it, ain't ya?

    And guess what; NONE of the above worked!
    Get with it here; No Barbarossa, no Pearl Harbor, which means a much less aggressive Axis.
    This is alternate History.
    Try again.
    Try harder.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
      You are really asking for it, ain't ya?
      Wrong!

      (P.S. I kind of like the style of posting of this Czech guy. Just reply "wrong" to anything you disagree with but without elaborating. It makes the discussion go faster)

      Last edited by MonsterZero; 05 Jul 10, 00:01.

      "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
      --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
        Including Tokyo?

        Seriously, Europe was about all that the Nazis could ever hope to control, and even that was a stretch.


        It would be an interesting scenario to explore- USSR attacks Nazi Europe in 1942. They had a great jumping-off point, and without an enemy in reach, the Germans might have been disbanding many Divisions by then.

        Would the Red Army have been smashed in an ill-conceived offensive and their own over-confidence, or would they have gone all the way to Paris before anyone knew what had hit them?
        my initial thoughts is the Russian might really hurt themselves with any offensive. they might gain at the start but the Germans are going to pull out the win at least in the short term. Given the combat xp they have and the Russian do not is going to be a major advantage. Were not Russian logistics a mess early in the war. Combat is what i think sorted that out somewhat for them. So throw in trying to do a major offensive then having it go badly might mean the Russians end up worse off than historical if the German are able to launch a major counter attack.

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        • #19
          I don't see how the movment east, against the SU, CAN be avoided. It is the cornerstone of all ratzi planning for their empire.

          Perhaps without all 'dolphie's successful, if paranoid, railing against the "Jewish Bolsheviks" as the destroyers of the Fatherland the ratzis never come to power at all.

          Regards,
          Dennis
          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

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          • #20
            Well seeing as the invasion of Russia was pretty much the raison d'etre of the entire war then this Alternative Timeline lacks credibility as an actual possible alternative. You'd need to change Hitlers entire oultook to be honest.

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            • #21
              Yes I think his one word answer doesn't cut it either. Even if the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbour but Hitler had maintained enough level headedness not to declare war on the Americans I doubt still that America would have got involved in Europe. Roosevelt had little inclination to do so and had pretty much been using it to get territorial concessions out of the British. Churchill mistakenly believed that Roosevelt was some kindred spirity in his fight against Nazism (and was constantly disapointed by what he said and then by what he did);a fellow crusader if you will. I think Roosevelt was much more "pragmatic" than that in respect to US interests.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by craven View Post
                Given the combat xp they have and the Russian do not is going to be a major advantage. Were not Russian logistics a mess early in the war. Combat is what i think sorted that out somewhat for them. So throw in trying to do a major offensive then having it go badly might mean the Russians end up worse off than historical if the German are able to launch a major counter attack.
                I don't think so. Russian had logistics very well. They could provided their armies i Finland only by one railway line.

                Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                Yes I think his one word answer doesn't cut it either. Even if the Japanese had bombed Pearl Harbour but Hitler had maintained enough level headedness not to declare war on the Americans I doubt still that America would have got involved in Europe. Roosevelt had little inclination to do so and had pretty much been using it to get territorial concessions out of the British. Churchill mistakenly believed that Roosevelt was some kindred spirity in his fight against Nazism (and was constantly disapointed by what he said and then by what he did);a fellow crusader if you will. I think Roosevelt was much more "pragmatic" than that in respect to US interests.
                I think that Roosvelt could find a pretext to war. For example if Uboot had sank american ship with people, the pretext would have been ready. USa couldn't agree on unite Europe, becouse USA had less influance on the world.

                But I don't understood why the agree on UErope Union today.

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                • #23
                  What If

                  I'd thought it best if Germany ordered France to stand down after her defeat. No air force, no armored divisions, no navy.

                  By evacuating occupation of Belgium and France I free up troops for a move through Turkey and down to the Suez.

                  My deal with Vichy is you can have your entire country, your navy must be sent to Indochina not to sail the Atlantic or Mediterranean for the next fifty years. If we see one plane or one ship anywhere near France we will simply devastate Paris. Your home guard will essentially be well armed police and border guards; sufficient for your defense and easy to run over if we need enter your country again. This brings the French population into a sense of relief and grateful they were only taught a humiliating lesson rather than a complete degrading occupation.

                  Of course once Germany has control of the Straits this could cause Stalin to finally attack as he would at this point feel he is being surrounded. Perhaps offering him a free hand in India and Iran would help but somehow a direct confrontation with the Bear will be inevitable.

                  In the end what do you gain? Dominance of the Middle East and its oil, the annexation of Holland and Denmark, Austria, along with western Poland, and Bohemia.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SteinOfOrange View Post
                    I'd thought it best if Germany ordered France to stand down after her defeat. No air force, no armored divisions, no navy.

                    By evacuating occupation of Belgium and France I free up troops for a move through Turkey and down to the Suez.

                    My deal with Vichy is you can have your entire country, your navy must be sent to Indochina not to sail the Atlantic or Mediterranean for the next fifty years. If we see one plane or one ship anywhere near France we will simply devastate Paris. Your home guard will essentially be well armed police and border guards; sufficient for your defense and easy to run over if we need enter your country again. This brings the French population into a sense of relief and grateful they were only taught a humiliating lesson rather than a complete degrading occupation.

                    Of course once Germany has control of the Straits this could cause Stalin to finally attack as he would at this point feel he is being surrounded. Perhaps offering him a free hand in India and Iran would help but somehow a direct confrontation with the Bear will be inevitable.

                    In the end what do you gain? Dominance of the Middle East and its oil, the annexation of Holland and Denmark, Austria, along with western Poland, and Bohemia.
                    The same wanted make Guderian. But I am not sure if it was possibility. In the first I don't think that Royal Navy could allow french navy went to Indochina. Moreover they would need help of japanisse.

                    In the onother side I and Suworow think that attack Russia on Germany was inevitable. Furthermore Stalin allowed to start war Hitler becouse he wanted attaced Germany when they will fight with French and Britain.

                    In conclussion I would said that Germany lost war in the 30 January 1930 year.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MonsterZero View Post
                      Wrong!

                      (P.S. I kind of like the style of posting of this Czech guy. Just reply "wrong" to anything you disagree with but without elaborating. It makes the discussion go faster)
                      Something to be said for that.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MonsterZero View Post
                        the Soviet Union is German ally and it continues delivering strategic materials to Germany according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreements.
                        By this count Sweden was a German ally alright. How little people needed to have a true friendship these days!
                        www.histours.ru

                        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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