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The Ultimate Alternate Timeline?

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  • The Ultimate Alternate Timeline?

    Some quick background:

    God promised Abraham in Genesis that he would make a nation out of him:

    And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. Genesis 12:2

    But Sarah (his wife) could not have children:

    Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. Genesis 18:11

    Abraham, and Sarai (later Sarah) tried to solve the problem themselves:

    Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as his wife. Genesis 16: 3

    And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. Gen. 16:15

    Since God had blessed Abraham, He promised that the child between Abraham and Hagar would also be a great nation:

    And also of the son of the bonds woman, I will make a nation also, because he is thy seed. Gen. 21:13

    Ismael became the father of the Islamic/Muslim nations:

    Ishmael married a daughter of the Jorhamite prince Mudad and she gave him an illustrious son named Kedar (Ar. Qaidar). Kedar was the ancestor of Adnan (Ar. Qais), who was the progenitor of the tribes of Northern Arabia and the forebear of the prophet of Islam.

    Later, God kept his promise:

    1And the LORD visited Sarah as he had said, and the LORD did unto Sarah as he had spoken.

    2For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

    3And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac. Genesis 21:1-3


    Well, ever since this, the Arabs (decendents of Ishamel) have hated the Jews (decendents of Isaac).

    So, what do you think would have happened if Abraham would not have had Ishmael? Do you think the middle east would be quiet, or are problems bound to happen because of the region? Would there be terrorists? Would Iran/Iraq be the problem areas that they are now?

    Are all these problems caused by this one choice by Sarah and Abraham?
    Last edited by dave123; 06 Jun 10, 08:36.

  • #2
    We would bee suffering Zorastrian fanatics instead...

    Comment


    • #3
      If Islam is truly man-made, The Christian Church will become the Islam of that world because Islam is nothing more, structurally, than the worst aspects of the 7th century Orthodoxy codified. In or world Islam was a hard, sharp smack in the mouth to the Church.

      If Islam was perpetrated by Satan (I don't believe that but I'm not ruling it out) it will pop up somewhere and cause immense suffering as our Islam does today. So not much would change there.
      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Wolery View Post
        If Islam is truly man-made, The Christian Church will become the Islam of that world because Islam is nothing more, structurally, than the worst aspects of the 7th century Orthodoxy codified. In or world Islam was a hard, sharp smack in the mouth to the Church.

        If Islam was perpetrated by Satan (I don't believe that but I'm not ruling it out) it will pop up somewhere and cause immense suffering as our Islam does today. So not much would change there.
        I don't buy that the Christian church would have become the Islam, because the Christian church supports Israel and is not militarily aggressive. Don't confuse the Catholic led crusades, Catholics are not Christian, but that's a subject for a different forum, I think.

        But you say it would have popped up without Ishmael? Good point.

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        • #5
          If you want to make the Ishmael argument, why not just keep on going back to the original progenitors, Adam and Eve? or whomever escaped from the Rift Valley? That would make us all descendants of just a few early homonids. Or, perhaps we could go back as far as Moses and figure out which of the twelve tribes we belong to....oh, wait! What about those peoples who originated in areas not covered by the Old Testament? Like the Orient, the Indian subcontinent, the New World and the South Pacific? What if- what if- what if....
          ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
          IN MARE IN COELO

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dave123 View Post
            Catholics are not Christian
            How on earth can you draw that conclusion? IMO that is one of the most ludicrous things ever posted on this board.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
              How on earth can you draw that conclusion? IMO that is one of the most ludicrous things ever posted on this board.
              This is not the place for this argument, so, although I could write pages, I will retract the statement because it does not have bearing on the thread.

              However, I do not make the statement lightly, or without research. If you are really curious, I give you a couple of links that cover the subject.


              http://www.justforcatholics.org/a21.htm
              (this is a website for catholics by a Christian)

              http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm

              dave
              Last edited by dave123; 07 Jun 10, 10:44.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jose50 View Post
                If you want to make the Ishmael argument, why not just keep on going back to the original progenitors, Adam and Eve? or whomever escaped from the Rift Valley? That would make us all descendants of just a few early homonids. Or, perhaps we could go back as far as Moses and figure out which of the twelve tribes we belong to....oh, wait! What about those peoples who originated in areas not covered by the Old Testament? Like the Orient, the Indian subcontinent, the New World and the South Pacific? What if- what if- what if....
                Ouch, this is turning into a political/religious thread, which was not my intention.

                My point: Isaac (father of Jews) and Ishmael (father of Arabs) had the same father, Abraham.

                What would be different in the world today if Ishmael had not been born, hence no Arab/Israeli situation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  `
                  Ultimate ?

                  Wouldn't that be more like what if Abraham had never been born ?


                  So much for your Arab/Israeli situation, wot ?
                  " Reality is interpretation according to a scheme which we cannot escape "

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dave123 View Post
                    I don't buy that the Christian church would have become the Islam, because the Christian church supports Israel and is not militarily aggressive. Don't confuse the Catholic led crusades, Catholics are not Christian, but that's a subject for a different forum, I think.

                    But you say it would have popped up without Ishmael? Good point.
                    Catholics are not Christian






                    Tell that to the Pope and all them good Catholics in Poland.

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                    • #11
                      Buddhism becomes the main tradition of the world, and we all live happily ever after.

                      Makes about as much sense as anything else...
                      "Why is the Rum gone?"

                      -Captain Jack

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                      • #12
                        Well, ever since this, the Arabs (decendents of Ishamel) have hated the Jews (decendents of Isaac).
                        Err not really, your assumptions are so bigoted that I dont know where to start correcting them.

                        Historically jews and muslims have had enjoyed much better relations than any other communties.All the time while the caliphs fought other moslem rivals and european christians, the jews continued to live and flourish in their lands.Not because the moslems were so generous to the jews but simply because they didnt see them as any threat to their power.Infact the jews helped the moslems greatly in the administration. See for example muaiwyah the first ummmayyd caliph who fought a bloody destructive war against Ali his rival while the jews and christians of syria lived quite peacefully under him.Muawiyah is not known to be a religious man, and that is reflected in his govt.Yet he continued the plundering that moslems called jeehad as it was good for business plus it kept the more zealots distracted from revolting against him.
                        Last edited by nastle; 25 Jun 10, 21:57.

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                        • #13
                          because the Christian church supports Israel and is not militarily aggressive. Don't confuse the Catholic led crusades, Catholics are not Christian, but that's a subject for a different forum, I think.
                          You really have a short term memory dont you , what about the persecution of church of other christians and jews in the middle ages ? thats not being militarily aggressive ?

                          secondly I find that quite offensive that you call catholics not christians, who gave you the authority to excommunicate them from the church ?

                          Crusades were the legitimate reaction of europeans to centuries of provocation by semitic people.They were not religious wars but primarily race wars under a religious garb.

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                          • #14
                            the recent muslim-jewish hatred is less than a century old and the best way to solve this is to leave the middle east to its own devices.We should stop aiding those moslem countries and their corrupt rulers.We should sell weapons to israel but dont get involved diplomatically in their affairs with arabs.we should keep our borders safe and build better relations with EU and russia.

                            America is a republic not an empire
                            Last edited by nastle; 25 Jun 10, 21:46.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lokinar View Post
                              `
                              Ultimate ?

                              Wouldn't that be more like what if Abraham had never been born ?


                              So much for your Arab/Israeli situation, wot ?

                              Comment

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