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  • Waffen-SS vs Japanese?

    Extending from the Waffen-SS vs Vietcong thread, I figure a more interesting and suitable combat situation would involve the Waffen-SS fighting against their former Japanese allies. How well would they do fighting off a Banzai charge in your view?
    39
    Waffen-SS
    74.36%
    29
    Japanese
    2.56%
    1
    They fight to a draw
    2.56%
    1
    Undecided, apples and organes.
    20.51%
    8
    Last edited by Pilsudski; 22 May 10, 07:01.
    "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
    --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

  • #2
    Oooh, a fight to the death by fanatics. My money would be on the Waffen SS, as their preponderance of automatic weapons would decimate Japanese bayonet charges just as well as American weapons.
    "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
    — Groucho Marx

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    • #3
      As long as the Germans had sufficient cover, plenty of ammo, and their machine guns didn't jam, they would hose down the Japanese.
      "Advances in technology tend to overwhelm me."

      Comment


      • #4
        imo the british were right in saying that the japanese are broken without nazi germany but germany can go on without japan. they depended on germany quite a lot (tech etc.)
        Ha, wie so stolz und hehr
        Wirft über Land und Meer
        Weithin der deutsche Aar
        Flammenden Blick.

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        • #5
          I don't know how much technology the Japanese recieved from Germany, Kimi. They sure could of used some help in their support weapons, AFVs. Seeing as how much hostile ocean space separated the two, I don't know if much could have been done.
          "The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made."
          — Groucho Marx

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          • #6
            SS troops would still cut the Japanese down. "Hitler's saw" the MG 42 would do most of that. But, the SS also has the same sort of orgainzation and cohesion that US troops against the Japanese had. The Japanese simply lack the equipment and firepower to take on Western WW 2 armies and win.

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            • #7
              They would join forces and take over the world...

              Oh, hang on. They tried that and it didn't work, did it?

              Sorry, I got distracted.

              The SS by a mile. The "Germany First" policy was there for a reason.
              Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

              That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Rojik View Post

                The SS by a mile. The "Germany First" policy was there for a reason.
                The reason for the Europe first policy was the German threat ot USSR and Britain. If those two countries fall, winning the war would be harder. In contrast, Japan only threatened expendable countries such as Australia, China, and the European colonies.

                Terrain would be the key as to which side wins. In a typical maneuver warfare, its the Germans. In a jungle fight its the Japanese.

                Don't ever under estimate the Japanese. Their night night infiltration and tactics are very effective. They captured more territory than the Germans ever did with fewer men. There is a reason why they dealt the British the largest ever surrender in Singapore.

                FYI the Japanese equivalent of the SS is called the imperial guard.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Imperial_Guards
                Last edited by IDonT4; 22 May 10, 12:50.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                  Don't ever under estimate the Japanese. Their night night infiltration and tactics are very effective. They captured more territory than the Germans ever did with fewer men. There is a reason why they dealt the British the largest ever surrender in Singapore.
                  I snipped the first part as I was not sure if you were agreeing with me or not so I figured I would let it go for the moment.

                  What did the Japanese actually do that was so note worthy when they fought on even terms? They had a quick run in the East by virtue of surprise attacks but after mid - late 1942 the war became a foregone conclusion.

                  The Japanese entered a war that they had no hope of winning unless they bullied the others into surrendering quickly and quietly (Pearl Harbour, Singapore, New Guinea etc) but they had themselves smashed by a Soviet army that was suffering from the purges and that was found wanting in Finland.

                  I would take the IISS Corps at full strength over any equivalent unit the Japanese could field.
                  Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

                  That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                    What did the Japanese actually do that was so note worthy when they fought on even terms? They had a quick run in the East by virtue of surprise attacks but after mid - late 1942 the war became a foregone conclusion.
                    The same could be said for the Germans in mid to late 1942.

                    The conquest of the East Indies, Burma, the Philippines, and Singapore were hardly by virtue of surprise alone. In most of these cases, the Japanese Army were out gunned and out numbered.


                    The Japanese entered a war that they had no hope of winning unless they bullied the others into surrendering quickly and quietly (Pearl Harbour, Singapore, New Guinea etc) but they had themselves smashed by a Soviet army that was suffering from the purges and that was found wanting in Finland.
                    There political goal, which all military goals were subservient to, was to gain enough territory to be self sufficient and incur a massive defeat on the allies that it will sue for peace on terms favorable to the Japanese. They fully expect to lose some of theri conquest for peace. What they didn't take into account was the unconditional surrender demand.

                    In this regard, the Japanese were extremely successful in their Blitzkrieg in SE Asia and fully achieve their pre war aims. The US just did not want to accept anything except unconditional surrender. By 1945, more than half of their conquest were still in Japanese hands.


                    I would take the IISS Corps at full strength over any equivalent unit the Japanese could field.
                    I would too if I was fighting in the Russian Steppes or African Desert. In the jungles of SE Asia and Pacific atolls, I would chose any Japanese Unit.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                      The same could be said for the Germans in mid to late 1942.

                      The conquest of the East Indies, Burma, the Philippines, and Singapore were hardly by virtue of surprise alone. In most of these cases, the Japanese Army were out gunned and out numbered.
                      The Japanese nearly lost in landing at Khota Bharu. The first wave floundered and go pinned on the beach. The following two suffered horrible casualties and were disorganized. The Japanese preservered by sheer will power to overcome the Indian defeneses there.

                      On Bataan in the PI the Japanese were on their last legs just like the American and Philippine defenders. Again a will to win preservered.

                      At Singapore the British were more responsible for their defeat than the Japanese were for winning.

                      In most of the early battles of the Pacific when the Japanese were facing tough determined defenders as at Wake they lost and lost badly. Their one saving strength was rapidity of action. They were in most cases able to maneuver so rapidly that a Western-style army conducting a Western-style defense could not do so. The Americans, Dutch and, British all lacked the troops to make continious fronts.
                      These same troops were not prepared for all around defense or for what amounted to nearly a guerrilla-style war that the Japanese often conducted. The best comparison might be with von Lettow-Vorbeck's campaign in German East Africa in WW 1.
                      There as in much of the Pacific the battlefield was so large and the defenders so few in number they couldn't defend everything and were not prepared to fight the kind of war they were engaged in. Their leaders were ill-prepared to think and fight in terms of the war they had to engage in. Its that simple.

                      The SS (and Wehrmacht) on the other hand became enured into fighting desperate defenses of surrounded positions. They understood how to hold to the last man so-to-speak. This wasn't an uncommon occurance for them as the war drug on. The Germans also understood independent action by small units far better than other 'European-style' armies. They met their match in this by late 1944 with the Americans who also tended to have a long history of understanding this sort of war intuitively.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                        Terrain would be the key as to which side wins. In a typical maneuver warfare, its the Germans. In a jungle fight its the Japanese.

                        Don't ever under estimate the Japanese. Their night night infiltration and tactics are very effective. They captured more territory than the Germans ever did with fewer men. There is a reason why they dealt the British the largest ever surrender in Singapore.
                        The only island battle where the Japanese managed to inflict higher casualties on the Americans was Iwo Jima. If you examine their combat methods and losses you may come to realize that the Japanese were simply outmatched. They could inflict some losses through night infiltration and other suicidal methods but it was just a minority factor. They were fighting American units with mostly rifles, scattered machineguns, and low caliber mortars. Running out of ammunition and food was a constant problem for them. American units (particularly the marines) were plentifully armed with automatic and semi-automatic weapons as well as specialist equipment and artillery, air, & armor support. And plentiful supplies.

                        While the jungle battles was primarily an infantry fight, the quality and quantity of material available was decisive. So the Japanese did not show "jungle superiority" over US marine and army divisions.

                        The SS panzergrenadier regiments can be compared favorably with Marine infantry regiments.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post
                          Extending from the Waffen-SS vs Vietcong thread, I figure a more interesting and suitable combat situation would involve the Waffen-SS fighting against their former Japanese allies. How well would they do fighting off a Banzai charge in your view?
                          The SS did a good job of fending off Russian charges that were similar to the famous Banzai charges, but with the benefit of artillery preparation and armor support in most cases.
                          Where the Japanese excelled was in defensive warfare, and the SS would have had to learn as they went, just like everyone else has to in every new war.
                          The only area where the SS would have had a chance to do better than other folks would have been in a large, open-country campaign, like in China or Manchuria. There, the advanced German tactics of the Blitz would have served them well... but only if the German fighters could have swept the skies of the Zeros.
                          I would not have bet too much on that until the FW-190 became available.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                            The Japanese nearly lost in landing at Khota Bharu. The first wave floundered and go pinned on the beach. The following two suffered horrible casualties and were disorganized. The Japanese preservered by sheer will power to overcome the Indian defeneses there.
                            The same thing could be said about Omaha Beach and Tarawa with the US forces.

                            On Bataan in the PI the Japanese were on their last legs just like the American and Philippine defenders. Again a will to win preservered.

                            At Singapore the British were more responsible for their defeat than the Japanese were for winning.
                            The same thing could be said for the first 2years in the Eastern Front. Once the Russans figure out how to blunt the Blizkrieg, the Germans were finished.

                            The SS (and Wehrmacht) on the other hand became enured into fighting desperate defenses of surrounded positions. They understood how to hold to the last man so-to-speak. This wasn't an uncommon occurance for them as the war drug on. The Germans also understood independent action by small units far better than other 'European-style' armies. They met their match in this by late 1944 with the Americans who also tended to have a long history of understanding this sort of war intuitively.
                            Man for man the soldiers of the Imperial Japanese Army were hardier than the Werhmarch. They refuse to surrender even against great odds. Against the Western armies, typical German last stand behavior was to fire every bullet he has then surrender, in the east, he had no choice as the Russians were not interested with surrender, but there were still surrender at the hundreds of thousands. The Japanese army almost always fought to the last man.

                            The SS panzergrenadier regiments can be compared favorably with Marine infantry regiments.
                            How so? Were they supported by massive firepower from battleships guns and overwhelming close air support? Fire support of this scale will not be available to the Werhmarch.

                            The only island battle where the Japanese managed to inflict higher casualties on the Americans was Iwo Jima.
                            The reason why is their penchant for n ever surrendering. Wounded US personell were evacuated, Japanese stayed and fought on. Lastly, the Japanese did not have access to large caliber supporting fires that the US had. In Okinawa, was the first time US forces faced Japanese artillery on large concentrations with brutal results.

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                            • #15
                              imo the british were right in saying that the japanese are broken without nazi germany but germany can go on without japan. they depended on germany quite a lot (tech etc.)
                              Germany carried all of her allies on her shoulders,this is what made the Wehrmacht alot weaker then they should have been when faced the three allied powers.

                              If the Japanese (and Italians) were that great,Germany could have won,even if the US join the war and now Russia against Germany.

                              Although the Japanese were fighting in 1936-1945,they never faced ultimate enemies until they attacked the US and when England declared war in 1939and without going against the Russians either,compared to Germany that faced the,UK,then years after Russia,US at virtually the same time.

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