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The Waffen SS vs. The Viet Cong

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  • The Waffen SS vs. The Viet Cong

    So, yeah, I sat through the Deadliest Warrior last night...



    Originally posted by ala Wiki

    Nazi Waffen-SS team: Silvio Wolf Busch (Former German Military), Robert Wilhelm-McCain (German Military Historian)

    Nazi Waffen-SS weapons: Mauser C96 Pistol, MP28, Schrapnellmine (Bouncing Betty), Flammenwerfer 41

    Viet Cong team: Tuan Nguyen (Vietnam War Survivor), Danny Boyer (Viet Cong Weapons Expert)

    Viet Cong weapons: Tokarev-TT33 Pistol, MAT-49N, F-1 Grenade + POMZ-2 combination, Punji Stakes
    Just for a hoot I'd thought I post a poll about that show...

    They did their best to present an even match by pulling out some odd weapon choices, but what about the rest of the stuff.

    I hope the resident experts can put something better than Spike together....
    37
    The Waffen SS
    54.05%
    20
    The Viet Cong
    13.51%
    5
    They are evenly matched
    2.70%
    1
    Apples and Oranges: To hard to compare...
    29.73%
    11
    Last edited by Paul Mann III; 20 May 10, 15:57.
    "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

    BoRG

  • #2
    To win Vietnam I would suggest Heart and Minds to win over the population. The SS would probably not score too highly in that department.

    Odd program .
    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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    • #3
      I watched that show for about five minutes. Sometimes the contest makes sense, sometimes it's kind of dumb.

      Since the US military had a kill ratio of at least 9 to 1 according to most sites, the Viet Cong were not the invincible force that was depicted last night. They were effectively destroyed as a fighting force during the Tet offensive which forced the North Vietnamese army to assume the bulk of the fighting. While the VC were fierce, dedicated and willing to endure massive casualties; man for man, the US soldier more than held his own.
      God Save The Republic.

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      • #4
        Some stats...

        Here's the breakdown from the show... Some odd choices of weapons, I assume in an effort to keep things even...


        Results

        Waffen SS Kills

        Viet Cong Kills

        Close Range:

        Mauser C96 Pistol 50

        Tokarev-TT33 Pistol 42

        Long Range:

        MP28 310

        MAT-49N 177

        Explosive Weapons:

        Schrapnellmine (Bouncing Betty) 76

        F-1 Grenade and POMZ-2 81

        Special Weapons:

        Flammenwerfer 41 178
        Punji Stakes 86

        Totals SS - 614 VC - 386
        Last edited by Paul Mann III; 20 May 10, 16:10.
        "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

        BoRG

        Comment


        • #5
          The Waffen SS should not only defeat the vietcong in most straight battles since they were better trained, led and equiped but also at least come out equal in pure terror rating. so as to the question "Who was the more deadly fighting force?" I'd say the SS. If they would have won a war of aggression in vietnam? Depends on the question against how many other states they fight at the same time.

          If its a one on one... how much more mighty were the viet cong than the french army, the polish army, the british army, etc. all of which lost or had to withdraw to avoid utter destruction? (Yeah I know, the Wehrmacht... but the Waffen SS without the Wehrmacht in an all out war against another country? )
          Ha, wie so stolz und hehr
          Wirft über Land und Meer
          Weithin der deutsche Aar
          Flammenden Blick.

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          • #6
            My thought: Could the Waffen SS defeat the Viet Cong in an insurgency-style war?

            We know they could not in straight-up battle...
            "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

            BoRG

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
              My thought: Could the Waffen SS defeat the Viet Cong in an insurgency-style war?

              We know they could not in straight-up battle...
              You mean the Vietcong couldn't stand up?
              "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
              --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Kimi View Post
                The Waffen SS should not only defeat the vietcong in most straight battles since they were better trained, led and equiped but also at least come out equal in pure terror rating. so as to the question "Who was the more deadly fighting force?" I'd say the SS. If they would have won a war of aggression in vietnam? Depends on the question against how many other states they fight at the same time.

                If its a one on one... how much more mighty were the viet cong than the french army, the polish army, the british army, etc. all of which lost or had to withdraw to avoid utter destruction? (Yeah I know, the Wehrmacht... but the Waffen SS without the Wehrmacht in an all out war against another country? )
                Well we could compare how the Waffen-SS did against partisans.
                "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
                --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

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                • #9
                  The Germans did have Brandenburg special force units which could've fought a guerrilla war, much like how American special forces did.

                  I know Waffen-SS veterans fought in the jungles of Africa and Vietnam after the war, when joining the French Foreign Legion or mercenary "Dogs of war".
                  "To be defeated and not submit, is victory; to be victorious and rest on one's laurels, is defeat."
                  --Marshal Józef Piłsudski

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Eh?

                    Originally posted by Pilsudski View Post

                    You mean the Vietcong couldn't stand up?
                    I posted what I meant. Sorry if it wasn't clear, but the sentence was properly constructed...

                    It seems obvious that in traditional WWII-style warfare the VC would be a poor unit of line....

                    But in partisan warfare the VC may give the SS a run for its deutsche marks...
                    Last edited by Paul Mann III; 20 May 10, 16:43.
                    "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                    BoRG

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Paul - you must have been really bored. That is a stupid show at the best of times.

                      As always which waffen ss unit are we talking about. They ranged in quality from criminal scum to fanatics. They are probably talking about the named famous panzer and panzer grenadier formations.

                      I find it hard to take their analysis seriously when they don't have the MG42 as a weapon in their list.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pditty881188
                        Yes for their high inflated deutsche marks indeed, but could the SS terrorize the population into converting against communism?
                        That didn't work in Russia. No reason to expect it to work in Vietnam.

                        You guys might want to note that some former waffen SS soldiers joined the French foreign legion after the war and ended up at a place called Dien Bien Phu.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AdrianE View Post

                          Paul - you must have been really bored. That is a stupid show at the best of times.

                          As always which waffen ss unit are we talking about. They ranged in quality from criminal scum to fanatics. They are probably talking about the named famous panzer and panzer grenadier formations.

                          I find it hard to take their analysis seriously when they don't have the MG42 as a weapon in their list.
                          Yeah, I was bored for sure... And pretty high, too...

                          I agree that which unit makes a difference, I would think for both the SS and VC.

                          As far as the weapons go, to keep the show interesting they chose weapons as close to each other as possible. Not a realistic choice, but understandable when it comes to marketing the program...
                          "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                          BoRG

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The SS would win the convential battles and then simply massacre every man, woman and child in villages. There would be no hiding amongst the villagers because the villagers would all be dead. It would simply be a matter of sweeping the terrain for any Vietnamese persons and killing them. The SS were not constrained by Berlin,... the were encouraged by their political leadership to commit genocide.
                            The Purist

                            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                            • #15
                              Like the Gunney once said in the movie Full Metal Jacket, "We killed the veitcong wholesale". If this is true about a regular infantry army then imagine what a specialist army like the SS is capable of.
                              Studying Logistics since birth....

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