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  • If Stauffenberg had stayed...

    If Claus von Stauffenberg had stayed with his bomb on July 20, 1944, he might have prevented its being moved to a position that ended up sparing Hitler's life. If he had made the supreme sacrifice and succeeded in his mission, what effect would it have had on the war? Would the Allies have negotiated an earlier peace or would they have stood behind FDR's public demand for an "unconditional surrender"?
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then I want to go where they went when they died-Will Rogers

  • #2
    The conscensus here is nothing but unconditional surrender. I am not so sure and have seen published support for a peace but FDR hated Germans on principle
    How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
    275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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    • #3
      Stauffenberg is critical to the formation of the next government, so I don't think he could have remained behind to make sure the job was done right. The unfortunate part is that he was also the plotter who had the best access to one-nut.

      I don't think even a successful assassination with the Count's survival changes the demand for unconditional surrender. Hoping to avoid that, like the Himmler's attempt at partial surrender option, is purely delusional thinking on the German's part.

      FDR hated Germans? Maybe nazis, and with complete and utter justification, but Germans? What nonsense!
      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

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      • #4
        Oh yes he did! Something about a very bad boarding school experience well before WWI. Overy mentions this as he says Churchill was the only major western ally to make a clean distinction between Germans and Nazis. The need to crush 'German militarism' apart from Nazism was rampant in the Anglo-American camp, and it struck me as very self serving. But again, the talk of unconditional surrender became a self fullfilling prophesy as it became the only way to depose Hilter after July 44. True commitment is another, a matter we can only speculate on.
        How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
        275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

        Comment


        • #5
          Something about a boarding school experience? That's proof?! Come on.

          When I did a quick search I found references to FDR hating Germans and loving Communitsts. All of them on various right-wing pages. Sorry, its a no go!
          If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

          Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

          Comment


          • #6
            After the assassination attempt, Hitler called S. a coward for not blowing himself up with..Hitler.
            Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
            Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
            Barbarossa Derailed I & II
            Battle of Kalinin October 1941

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            • #7
              Hitler called anyone who disagreed with him a coward and much worse.
              I was told recently more about operation Valkyrie, I had no idea how relatively well planned the whole thing was, I just thought it failed because German general sucked at couping.
              I forgot though, what was Stauffenberg's vital role in the post Valkyrie government?
              Reaction to the 2016 Munich shootings:
              Europe: "We are shocked and support you in these harsh times, we stand by you."
              USA: "We will check people from Germany extra-hard and it is your own damn fault for being so stupid."

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              • #8
                I forgot though, what was Stauffenberg's vital role in the post Valkyrie government?
                Kill Hitler,resume the head of state,surrender to the allies/US and British only.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Acheron View Post
                  Hitler called anyone who disagreed with him a coward and much worse.
                  I was told recently more about operation Valkyrie, I had no idea how relatively well planned the whole thing was, I just thought it failed because German general sucked at couping.
                  I forgot though, what was Stauffenberg's vital role in the post Valkyrie government?
                  minister of war or something of that sort. General Beck was to become the head of state.
                  Zhitomir-Berdichev, West of Kiev: 24 Dec 1943-31 Jan 1944
                  Stalin's Favorite: The Combat History of the 2nd Guards Tank Army
                  Barbarossa Derailed I & II
                  Battle of Kalinin October 1941

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
                    Something about a boarding school experience? That's proof?! Come on.

                    When I did a quick search I found references to FDR hating Germans and loving Communitsts. All of them on various right-wing pages. Sorry, its a no go!
                    Ah geez you want me to go through 'Why the Allies Won' to find a couple of paragraphs you probably won't beleive anyway? I make no promises, but Ill see what I can do
                    How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                    275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tikru
                      Wolery, are you sure you're not married to Heidi?
                      Should I feel insulted by that? I have no problem with Heidi, and think she's made good progress in becoming understandable. No seriously, Richard Overy mentions FDR's rather virulent dislike of all things German and traces it back to him being in a German boarding school for a semester, and forever thought of Germans as thuggish brutes. I wasn't expecting it, though it makes Roosevelt a fantastic antagonist in the Defender of the Reich project I'm half assedly working on. FDR according to Overy would hate everything about my hero, and that's just awesome in showing the pettiness of the notion of unconditional surrender divorced from the Nazis ruling Germany.
                      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wolery View Post
                        Ah geez you want me to go through 'Why the Allies Won' to find a couple of paragraphs you probably won't beleive anyway? I make no promises, but Ill see what I can do
                        A couple of paragraphs in one book alluding to FDR having a hatred of the German people. Right.

                        If that were in fact the case I think it would be far better know and accepted in the factual realm. That doesn't seem to be the case though.

                        Don't waste my time, as to your time, well........
                        Last edited by D1J1; 23 May 10, 05:38.
                        If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

                        Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Does anyone know the actual seating arrangement when the July 20 bomb went off at Rastenburg? Most historians have Gen. Heusinger on Hitler's left, then Gen. Korten and then Gen. Brandt, in that order. Both Korten and Brandt were killed. But recently, Heusinger's own eye witness report has surfaced and he had Brandt next to Hitler, not Korten. Can anyone shed any light on this discrepancy?

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by D1J1 View Post
                            Something about a boarding school experience? That's proof?! Come on.

                            When I did a quick search I found references to FDR hating Germans and loving Communitsts. All of them on various right-wing pages. Sorry, its a no go!
                            Indeed, unless I can find proof, going to have to forego that.
                            "I am the Lorax, and I'll yell and I'll shout for the fine things on earth that are on their way out!"

                            ~Dr. Seuss, The Lorax


                            "The trouble with Scotland...is that it's full of Scots!"

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                            • #15
                              I read somewhere:- sorry, I can't cite the source, that the plotters intended to negotiate with the allies on the basis of restoring Germany's 1914 frontiers, presumably including Alsace-Lorraine and the Polish territories lost after WW1.

                              I can't see that happening.
                              "I dogmatise and am contradicted, and in this conflict of opinions and sentiments I find delight".
                              Samuel Johnson.

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