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  • If the allies in WWII had todays stuff...

    Ok, so one of my friends came up with this idea-If the allies in WWII (more specifically the Amercians and British (no, he wasn't trying to racist towards Russians)) had the weapons of today, such as the M16/M4, ACR, SCAR, G36, UMP45, etc., if somehow part of our military went back in time with all this stuff, what would today be like? He said this somewhat true and amusing premise: "If then they had today's weapons, then Halo (the video game) would be happening in a while, ha ha!" I laughed and could somewhat believe it-we would probably have space colonies somewhere-even if not so far gone places like 9000000000000000000000000000000 light years away-it would still be interesting, and all of our technology would be ahead of its time.

    John Birmingham highlights this quite well, when a carrier group accidentally falls through their own wormhole and ends up in 1942 before Midway...and by the 3rd book-they have AC47 gunships, the SAS, Skyraider and Sabre jets not originally produced until Korea (Sabre) and Korea/Vietnam (Skyraider), and other things.

    Isn't it awesome to think about alternate history? I think so
    "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

    --Hávamál

  • #2
    Biggest issue is the ability to make and replace such equipment. If they can the Axis are hopelessly outmatched and will fold very quickly. It's easy to land 100,000s of troops in northern France if the Krauts cannot effectively resist on the beach or for several miles inland. I would like to think the Soviet Union could be bullied into going hermit kingdom again or conquered outright. But that's a political move, and politicians don't always have vision (see Yalta Conference)

    All the Allies would need to 'win' though are earlier nukes. a dozen or so low yield nukes could finish Germany in a day. I am against nukes though for the awful side effects (like putting human civilization in peril), but their ability to destroy industry and infrastructure are unparalleled. Remember though, whatever the Allies blow up, they will also have to rebuild to stabilize the former Axis populations.
    How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
    275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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    • #3
      What do I think should be wormholed back to totally revolutionize warfare in the ETO?

      Apache Attack Helicopters. With their full suite of weapons, they'd be capable of annihilating German armor day or night, and would risk very little during night operations.

      CH53E transport helicopters. The ability to fly a battalion of troops to a pinpoint location from another battlefield location would be a boon. The ability to do so several times a day would be devestating to a retreating German Army.


      Javelin ATGMs. Yet another wonder weapon that the Wermacht couldn't match. GIs having the ability to attack any panzer at ranges up to 3000m, and being able to bunker bust without any SPG assistance would be mind boggling.

      Mk19GMGs. Would give Halftracks a serious firepower boost, and even the ability to get severe damage or kills on the lighter German armored vehicles. Would also make them devestating to infantry in urban environments or the open.

      This is not an all inclusive list, just some things that I think the Germans could not compensate for.
      Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Wolery View Post
        Biggest issue is the ability to make and replace such equipment.
        Yup. And a ton of books and blueprints, spare parts, experts and technicians.

        It's no good giving the allies a bunch of Abram's and Phantoms if they can't service them. The end product is all good and well but that is just the pointy end of the spear. There are a hell of a lot of other things that go into making it useful and most of these wouldn't happen without a massive re-education and re-tooling so that even the most minor things can be repaired/serviced.

        They might be able to incorporate some of the technology by 1943/44 but most would go to waste and it might only shorten the war by 18 months at most.
        Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

        That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
          Apache Attack Helicopters. With their full suite of weapons, they'd be capable of annihilating German armor day or night, and would risk very little during night operations.

          CH53E transport helicopters. The ability to fly a battalion of troops to a pinpoint location from another battlefield location would be a boon. The ability to do so several times a day would be devestating to a retreating German Army.
          Put those capabilities together and you have the 101st Air Assualt Division (or whatever it is called this week)

          Either it or a USMC MAGTAF of similar size could launch from the UK before midnight and have the port of Cherbourg half secured by noon the next day. Shortly after dawn a airfield could be useable and the beaching sites would be secure for the amphibious ships.

          Perperation would consist of a few air and ground EW units shutting down key German communications channels, tho many would be left open so the intel people could monitor them. PGMs would be used for a few hours in advance of the air assualt to nuetralize the fortifications and anti air batteries defending the port.

          On D+3 a pair of reinforced mechanized brigades would be advancing south from Cherbourg into Normandy. Perhaps those would be of the Free French corps. Ahead of the ground force air assualt TF and amphibious TF would sieze key points. A rolling attack of EW attacks would blackout enemy communications a days march ahead. Air and deep artillery/missle strikes would disrupt enemy movements and HQ or air defense.

          Between D+4 and D+6 the senior enemy commanders in the West would see the situation as hopeless and the collapse of morale would spread through the junior HQ very quickly as communications fail at each critical moment.

          Long range bombers dropping large penetrating munitions on the Furher bunker ect... would be 'usefull' as well.

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          • #6
            Better make it a one shot gambit.

            The Red Ball Express has no chance in hell of supporting modern weapons in WW2. Just for example; my old ACR aviation sqdn would go through 12,000 gals of JP-8 a day, in training. An AH-64 takes 375 gals of fuel, and that lasts for about 2.5 hrs.

            Modern weapons will make a big impact but will be useless hunks of metal once the fuel runs out.
            If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
              What do I think should be wormholed back to totally revolutionize warfare in the ETO?

              Apache Attack Helicopters. With their full suite of weapons, they'd be capable of annihilating German armor day or night, and would risk very little during night operations.

              CH53E transport helicopters. The ability to fly a battalion of troops to a pinpoint location from another battlefield location would be a boon. The ability to do so several times a day would be devestating to a retreating German Army.


              Javelin ATGMs. Yet another wonder weapon that the Wermacht couldn't match. GIs having the ability to attack any panzer at ranges up to 3000m, and being able to bunker bust without any SPG assistance would be mind boggling.

              Mk19GMGs. Would give Halftracks a serious firepower boost, and even the ability to get severe damage or kills on the lighter German armored vehicles. Would also make them devestating to infantry in urban environments or the open.

              This is not an all inclusive list, just some things that I think the Germans could not compensate for.
              Hmmm...yes those would be good things-think if Patton's 3rd Army had them...


              Originally posted by Rojik View Post
              Yup. And a ton of books and blueprints, spare parts, experts and technicians.

              It's no good giving the allies a bunch of Abram's and Phantoms if they can't service them. The end product is all good and well but that is just the pointy end of the spear. There are a hell of a lot of other things that go into making it useful and most of these wouldn't happen without a massive re-education and re-tooling so that even the most minor things can be repaired/serviced.

              They might be able to incorporate some of the technology by 1943/44 but most would go to waste and it might only shorten the war by 18 months at most.
              So true, looking deeper into it...although I think John Birmingham was accurate that by 1944 they have Sabre jets, which what, didn't come out until 1950's? By 1944 everyone was doing jet engine research (Germans won the race...), so if guys come along that have had jets for like two thirds of a century, and came along in 1942...

              Also, AC47s are epic in his...2nd book...yeah, anyways, they outfit two C47s with a minigun and they wreak havoc over Germans invading Britain. I think if they had miniguns then-they could have made AC47s with obvious modification to the plane.

              In the last book (taking place mid-1944), they even have a few 1st gen Chinooks that the...newly organized SAS...use to raid a German weapons research facility.

              Btw...about the war ending early...I thin, in Birmingham's last one it ends in late June/early august when the Soviets nuke the Germans



              Originally posted by Freightshaker View Post
              Better make it a one shot gambit.

              The Red Ball Express has no chance in hell of supporting modern weapons in WW2. Just for example; my old ACR aviation sqdn would go through 12,000 gals of JP-8 a day, in training. An AH-64 takes 375 gals of fuel, and that lasts for about 2.5 hrs.

              Modern weapons will make a big impact but will be useless hunks of metal once the fuel runs out.
              Oh yeah, your right! The only way a few of the vehicles/aircraft could be supplied constantly would be if the Red Ball Express ammo/fuel hubs/depots were closer to the airfields or base or front lines...which would mean Patton wouldn't be pissin' in the Rhine until later in '45!
              "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

              --Hávamál

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              • #8
                Btw...about the war ending early...I thin, in Birmingham's last one it ends in late June/early august when the Soviets nuke the Germans
                What did they use as a delivery system?
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Half Pint John View Post
                  What did they use as a delivery system?
                  A new Tupolev aircraft that the Russians develop...forgot which one-definitely not Bear-know that one.
                  "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

                  --Hávamál

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                  • #10
                    I am in the keep it simple mode. Just look at the taking mini guns and autmatic grenade launchers. I am guessing they could back enginer the ammo for them.

                    I also think B 52s might do the trick. The early tech is not that far from WW2 so although you might not be albe to fix the high tech stuff you might be albe to replace it with older tech.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by craven View Post
                      I am in the keep it simple mode. Just look at the taking mini guns and autmatic grenade launchers. I am guessing they could back enginer the ammo for them.

                      I also think B 52s might do the trick. The early tech is not that far from WW2 so although you might not be albe to fix the high tech stuff you might be albe to replace it with older tech.
                      The B-52 plans were being thought up in mid 1950's I believe.
                      "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

                      --Hávamál

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                      • #12
                        Fast Strat Bombers wouldn't make that much of a difference. Why? The strategic bombing campaign never really stopped German production, and by late '44 the Allies could pretty much bomb what they pleased in the Reich anyway.

                        Good points about the logistical concerns. As a logistician I would consider myself guilty as charged on that count. Therefore I present a few more options:

                        C-130 transports (for tactical transport of larger amounts of gear and supplies from England to the Continent).

                        An LHD, fully kitted out with AH1Y Cobras and UH1 Hueys. This would replace the Apache/CH53 combination. Should also fix the logistics problem by giving them a plaform for operations and making their mission tactical on D-D+4 instead of an ongoing operational commitment. Also they'd start off with a crapload of fuel onboard, which would keep them going for a few days, and the ship could always have tankers brought alongside.

                        There is very little in the infantry weapons category, excepting ATGMs and LAWs that I think would make a difference. Maybe Claymore mines on the infantry level, put a couple in front of every OP to protect against interlopers, but using M16s or M249s wouldn't make that much of an overall difference.
                        Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
                          Fast Strat Bombers wouldn't make that much of a difference. Why? The strategic bombing campaign never really stopped German production, and by late '44 the Allies could pretty much bomb what they pleased in the Reich anyway.

                          Good points about the logistical concerns. As a logistician I would consider myself guilty as charged on that count. Therefore I present a few more options:

                          C-130 transports (for tactical transport of larger amounts of gear and supplies from England to the Continent).

                          An LHD, fully kitted out with AH1Y Cobras and UH1 Hueys. This would replace the Apache/CH53 combination. Should also fix the logistics problem by giving them a plaform for operations and making their mission tactical on D-D+4 instead of an ongoing operational commitment. Also they'd start off with a crapload of fuel onboard, which would keep them going for a few days, and the ship could always have tankers brought alongside.

                          There is very little in the infantry weapons category, excepting ATGMs and LAWs that I think would make a difference. Maybe Claymore mines on the infantry level, put a couple in front of every OP to protect against interlopers, but using M16s or M249s wouldn't make that much of an overall difference.
                          oh the B 52 were not for strategic bombing. I was thinking carpet bombing.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by craven View Post
                            oh the B 52 were not for strategic bombing. I was thinking carpet bombing.
                            Uh...except for occasions in Vietnam (where yes, I think they were used for carpet bombings, but I believe they did a few more strategic runs), the B-52 would have been strategic. Ever heard of Linebacker II? It was a defense we used during the '60's in which four B-52s armed to the teeth with nukes were constantly in the air, ready to strike back at the Soviets if they ever attacked. Although, due to two incidents in which one B-52 crashed and a second accidentally dropped one of its unarmed warheads on the US, it was cancelled.

                            Nonetheless, B-52s were more for strategic roles.

                            I think the C-130 idea though would have made resupply much faster and easier.
                            "A foolish man thinks he knows everything if placed in unexpected difficulty; but he knows not what to answer, if to the test he is put."

                            --Hávamál

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Super Six 4 View Post
                              Uh...except for occasions in Vietnam (where yes, I think they were used for carpet bombings, but I believe they did a few more strategic runs), the B-52 would have been strategic. Ever heard of Linebacker II? It was a defense we used during the '60's in which four B-52s armed to the teeth with nukes were constantly in the air, ready to strike back at the Soviets if they ever attacked. Although, due to two incidents in which one B-52 crashed and a second accidentally dropped one of its unarmed warheads on the US, it was cancelled.

                              Nonetheless, B-52s were more for strategic roles.

                              I think the C-130 idea though would have made resupply much faster and easier.
                              How they were used has nothing to do with how they could be used.
                              They were also used in Desert Storm. From what I heard on the History Channel the Iraiqs lost a lot of men to them.

                              Although your transport Idea is a good one it does not reduce the casualties for the allies a whole lot. Consider having B 52 assisting Operation Market garden.

                              I would go with C 130s btw since they also came out in the 50s should be easier to get parts for also.
                              Last edited by craven; 28 Feb 10, 22:57.

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