Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Battle of Kursk-Surprise Attack?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Battle of Kursk-Surprise Attack?

    Would have german forces won the battle of Kursk,if the Russian forces never stumbled on-apond the german invasion plans early?

  • #2
    Maybe, but the Reds didn't exactly "stumble" on to it. The Red Orchestra was a very sophisticated spy network who's full story has yet to be told. (I myself would still like to know who 'Werther' was)

    It's also nearly impossible to conceal a build-up of troops on that scale. and almost as hard to deceive the enemy about what their objective will be.

    Add that to the fact that the Kursk bulge was THE most obvious target for the German army that summer...


    However, there was a variation that the General Staff should have considered;
    Take a look at a map of the attack- The Germans took the most obvious route in the attack. Not being the stupidest people in the world, the Red Army had dug in and laid mines by the square kilometer, right where they knew the most likely route of attack was.

    Instead, the German Army should have taken the bulge end-on. I would have peeled off about 70% of the Manstien's force and about 60% of Model's troops, and had them hit the west end of Kursk. The remainder of the foces on the wings could either reinforce the main thrust, or stab from the 'shoulders' of the bulge... not inwards, but due east. The men in charge of the Russian strategic reserves would have had nervous breakdowns trying to figure out which way to jump.
    "Why is the Rum gone?"

    -Captain Jack

    Comment


    • #3
      Take a look at a map of the attack- The Germans took the most obvious route in the attack.
      Ok,what if germany never took the obvoius route,and.....

      Instead, the German Army should have taken the bulge end-on. and had them hit the west end of Kursk.
      What if, german forces did this attack,would germany win the Kursk battle?

      Also,would you say that since Russia found out about the german plan of Kursk,was this luck for the Russians that had something to do with the russians having a edge over german forces!

      Comment


      • #4
        At best the war would have lasted 1 year longer imo. The Soviets were certainly getting stronger and stronger, while the Axis was not.
        How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
        Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ELLE View Post
          Ok,what if germany never took the obvoius route,and.....


          What if, german forces did this attack,would germany win the Kursk battle?
          The Germans were already strategically over-stretched by this point of the war, campaigning in Italy, preparing for an Allied invasion of France, dealing with the steadily more effective Allied strategic bombing offensive, losing the Battle of the Atlantic. Even if the German forces had reached their objectives they didn't have the resources to exploit the victory.

          Also,would you say that since Russia found out about the german plan of Kursk,was this luck for the Russians that had something to do with the russians having a edge over german forces!
          In the area of Military Intelligence the Soviets were way ahead of the Germans. Not only were they very good at divining the intentions of their enemies but the also concealed their own preparations very effectively. There's an 'edge' if ever there was one.
          Signing out.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
            In the area of Military Intelliigence the Soviets were way ahead of the Germans. Not only were they very good at divining the intentions of their enemies but the also concealed their own preparations very effectively. There's an 'edge' if ever there was one.
            This leads to a related WI. To pull off stratigic or operational suprise in the east the Germans have to improve their intelligence operations dramtically. That is WI a higher level of suprise in the east is part of a overall improvement in German intellgence operations, particularly counter intel?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
              This leads to a related WI. To pull off stratigic or operational suprise in the east the Germans have to improve their intelligence operations dramtically. That is WI a higher level of suprise in the east is part of a overall improvement in German intellgence operations, particularly counter intel?
              Not only does it allow the Germans to mount offensive operations with a greater chance of success but it also gives them the potential to counter Soviet offensives more effectively. Piercing 'The Red Cloak' doesn't stop the Germans being defeated but it does mean they take a lot more of the Soviet army down in the process.
              Signing out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Germany lost the war in 1941 when it commited the fateful diversion from moscow towards the Ukraine. Winning any other battles after commiting that blunder including winning Kursk would have just delayed a Soviet victory not prevented it. I still believe Germany had a fair chance of winning the war if Barbaroosa had been planned and handled better.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Slim View Post
                  Germany lost the war in 1941 when it commited the fateful diversion from moscow towards the Ukraine. Winning any other battles after commiting that blunder including winning Kursk would have just delayed a Soviet victory not prevented it. I still believe Germany had a fair chance of winning the war if Barbaroosa had been planned and handled better.
                  We had an interesting debate on this topic here

                  http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...highlight=kiev

                  It is questionable whether German logistics would have allowed for a push on Moscow instead of Kiev but the debate is an interesting one. David Downing has written a whole alternative history book ('The Moscow Option') on the premise that the German High Command managed to push through a decision to go for Moscow in the late Summer of 1941. He concludes that even if they managed to hold and stabilise their positions prior to the onset of Winter the Germans/Axis still don't have the resources to turn this improved situation into overall victory. Worth reading if you're into that kind of thing.
                  Signing out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                    Maybe, but the Reds didn't exactly "stumble" on to it. The Red Orchestra was a very sophisticated spy network who's full story has yet to be told. (I myself would still like to know who 'Werther' was)

                    It's also nearly impossible to conceal a build-up of troops on that scale. and almost as hard to deceive the enemy about what their objective will be.

                    Add that to the fact that the Kursk bulge was THE most obvious target for the German army that summer...


                    However, there was a variation that the General Staff should have considered;
                    Take a look at a map of the attack- The Germans took the most obvious route in the attack. Not being the stupidest people in the world, the Red Army had dug in and laid mines by the square kilometer, right where they knew the most likely route of attack was.

                    Instead, the German Army should have taken the bulge end-on. I would have peeled off about 70% of the Manstien's force and about 60% of Model's troops, and had them hit the west end of Kursk. The remainder of the foces on the wings could either reinforce the main thrust, or stab from the 'shoulders' of the bulge... not inwards, but due east. The men in charge of the Russian strategic reserves would have had nervous breakdowns trying to figure out which way to jump.
                    Most of the information of the Lucy spyring was ;Werther has never existed ;see :Werther has niemals gelebt ;even von Manstein is admitting it in his memoirs'Verlorene Siege '

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                      Maybe, but the Reds didn't exactly "stumble" on to it. The Red Orchestra was a very sophisticated spy network who's full story has yet to be told. (I myself would still like to know who 'Werther' was)

                      It's also nearly impossible to conceal a build-up of troops on that scale. and almost as hard to deceive the enemy about what their objective will be.

                      Add that to the fact that the Kursk bulge was THE most obvious target for the German army that summer...
                      Although I believe that Stalin thought that the direction of Fall Blau in 1942 was Moscow, but turned out to be to the south.
                      "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
                      "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

                      "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
                      — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by At ease View Post
                        Although I believe that Stalin thought that the direction of Fall Blau in 1942 was Moscow, but turned out to be to the south.
                        Stalin & STAVKA may have been thinking worst case scenario. They had the starting positions of the German attack right. From their PoV a left hook to the north was more dangerous, so they aligned their defense in that direction during the spring.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                          Stalin & STAVKA may have been thinking worst case scenario. They had the starting positions of the German attack right. From their PoV a left hook to the north was more dangerous, so they aligned their defense in that direction during the spring.
                          Therefore, they were deceived.
                          "It's like shooting rats in a barrel."
                          "You'll be in a barrel if you don't watch out for the fighters!"

                          "Talking about airplanes is a very pleasant mental disease."
                          — Sergei(son of Igor) Sikorsky, 'AOPA Pilot' magazine February 2003.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                            The Germans were already strategically over-stretched by this point of the war, campaigning in Italy, preparing for an Allied invasion of France, dealing with the steadily more effective Allied strategic bombing offensive, losing the Battle of the Atlantic. Even if the German forces had reached their objectives they didn't have the resources to exploit the victory.
                            Wait a minute, I think I caught you in a mistake here. Sicily wasn’t invaded until 10 July 1943. Almost a week after citadel kicked off.
                            Last edited by Tsar; 22 Nov 09, 01:50.
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                              We had an interesting debate on this topic here

                              http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...highlight=kiev

                              It is questionable whether German logistics would have allowed for a push on Moscow instead of Kiev but the debate is an interesting one. David Downing has written a whole alternative history book ('The Moscow Option') on the premise that the German High Command managed to push through a decision to go for Moscow in the late Summer of 1941. He concludes that even if they managed to hold and stabilise their positions prior to the onset of Winter the Germans/Axis still don't have the resources to turn this improved situation into overall victory. Worth reading if you're into that kind of thing.


                              Hi Full Monty,

                              Thank you for recommending the book and showing me the link to the topic. I am indeed very much into that whole debate.

                              Slim

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X