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Carthage wins Punic Wars

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  • Carthage wins Punic Wars

    What do you think? How would history run if Cart-Hadat defeated Rome. Where was turning point? On Sicily? Under Zama? In Spain? What could Carthaginians do or do better?

  • #2
    No clue where a turning point might be. Perhaps the long term outcome might be the African littoral & possiblly Iberia are much less influenced by the Latin culture Rome developed? A second possiblity is Rome spends mre energy consolidating its influence in Europe?

    The third possiblity is Rome fails to sustain its empire and fades away with some other empire/s emerging. Latin becomes a dead a language as Etruscan and Greek remains much more important.

    If Rome is prevented from controling the Eastern Levant & Judeah then does Christianity emerge in any form recognizable today? Or Islam? Those who believe in predestination of these religions would of course say yes. The Prophet & Christ, ect.. would emerge with their messages from God on schedule. But, witout the Roman empire & Latin culture/politics the development is likely to diverge.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
      If Rome is prevented from controling the Eastern Levant & Judeah then does Christianity emerge in any form recognizable today? Or Islam? Those who believe in predestination of these religions would of course say yes. The Prophet & Christ, ect.. would emerge with their messages from God on schedule. But, witout the Roman empire & Latin culture/politics the development is likely to diverge.
      You think, that influance of Christianity would be smaller. Maybe a little. Maybe instead of Europe it would extend to Hellenistic World i.e. Asia, Persia, Greece and Macedonia. And later destroyed by Islam!

      However do you think, that Karthage would be less expansive after wars than Rome was? I think that Roman conquests resulted from fact, that it had many lands in many places of Mediterranean world and as a consequence many conflicts which Rome won...

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      • #4
        Carthage is more likely to go south into Africa than north into Britain and Germany, for one thing.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AThousandYoung View Post
          Carthage is more likely to go south into Africa than north into Britain and Germany, for one thing.
          South? For what? Sands of Sahara? All it's expansion until fall was northwards, Sicilia, Sardinia, Corsica, Sapin, all of this lands are north of Carthage. It's dobtful if expansion went as far as Britain, however Italy, Spain, Gaul, maybe East Egypt, Phoenicia (nota bene fatherland of Carthaginians) etc.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Memnon_Soter View Post
            South? For what? Sands of Sahara? All it's expansion until fall was northwards, Sicilia, Sardinia, Corsica, Sapin, all of this lands are north of Carthage. It's dobtful if expansion went as far as Britain, however Italy, Spain, Gaul, maybe East Egypt, Phoenicia (nota bene fatherland of Carthaginians) etc.
            West African gold for one thing.

            They circumnavigated Africa apparently:

            http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Hanno.html
            Last edited by AThousandYoung; 20 Nov 09, 09:24.

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            • #7
              I think they'd be involved in conflicts with Egypt or Macedonia.

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              • #8
                ...oh, PUNIC wars...I thought it said something else..sorry...
                ARRRR! International Talk Like A Pirate Day - September 19th
                IN MARE IN COELO

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                • #9
                  Battle of the Metaurus

                  Originally posted by Memnon_Soter View Post
                  What do you think? How would history run if Cart-Hadat defeated Rome. Where was turning point? On Sicily? Under Zama? In Spain? What could Carthaginians do or do better?
                  Here is your turning point

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Metaurus
                  Give me a fast ship and the wind at my back for I intend to sail in harms way! (John Paul Jones)

                  Initiated Chief Petty Officer
                  Hard core! Old School! Deal with it!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AThousandYoung View Post
                    West African gold for one thing.

                    They circumnavigated Africa apparently:

                    http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Hanno.html
                    West African gold? Where? It's not provocative question. I don't know anything about it... But if you say so why they sterted conquest of much more demanding Spain for silver instead of much more desired gold in Africa?

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                    • #11
                      Iberia was already a important economic part of the Carthagian mercantile network. At least parts if not all were under Carthagian political control by this turning point.

                      Gold & other items were available it West Africa. Carthage drew on the maritime tradtions of the Greeks and the ancient 'Sea Peoples' culture. So, the much easier sea routes to west Africa, and north to Gaul, Britain & further north would have been available. There is documentary evidence of merchant ships traveling to Britain for tin & other high value trade goods as early as the Phonecian era. There is also evidence of Phonecian trading voyages along Africas west coast, and at least one trading expedition is thought to have circumvented Africa. The Greeks inherited all that when they came to dominate the maritime affairs of the Meditterrainian & Carthage was one of the old Sea Peoples establishments that carried on in the Greek era.

                      Rome or the Latins did learn to utilize sea trade as they did military naval power, but growth does not seem to be all it could have been during the Roman era.

                      Note: In the maritime world of the ancient Mediterranian conquest of Iberian of any other geographical location was not often necessary for economic dominance. Control a few stratigic ports and running the competition out of a particular sea route was often as far as military action went. Carthigian control of any particular area was the product of a complex web of political and trade agreements as much as of military conquest. Rome was in a entirely different and smaller tradition with its many large garrisons, military roads, and 'settlement' system.
                      Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 21 Nov 09, 06:54.

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                      • #12
                        I tend to agree that a Carthaginian military ascendancy over the Italian peninsulas peoples (certainly, I think, not "conquest") would have led to a type of mercantilist, indirect dominance of the mediterranean and loose connections to a few areas of sub-Saharan Africa (a combination of land and sea trade).

                        But one really interesting result could have been the longer independent development of northern Celtic Europe in political, artistic, and other modes) certainly beyond any strong Carthagnian dominance.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tuor View Post
                          But one really interesting result could have been the longer independent development of northern Celtic Europe in political, artistic, and other modes) certainly beyond any strong Carthagnian dominance.
                          Wide spread survival of the Celtic languages & Latin surviving only in the Italian pennesula?

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                          • #14
                            Don't forget the Germanic peoples.

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                            • #15
                              So you suggest that considering less expansive nature of Carthaginian state the only result of Punic victory would be neutralisation of Roman power?

                              What about Celts than? As we know in Cesar times or speaking more accurately in times of his invasion of Gaul there was still expansive pressure among Celtic tribes. There were also some centralisation among them i.e. confederations of tribes or even king election! Celtic culture was at high level.

                              On the other hand in time we know from our sources there was German penetration of Gaul. We know at least two great invasions. Germans started establishing settlements on the left bank of Rhaine.

                              So, how do you think. From Carthaginian victory would rise Celtic or German Europe?

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