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Perfect Armoured Division ETO 1944

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  • #31
    So, have been meaning to do this for a while. This is for a Commonwelth army with Commonwealth kit but, of course, diverges much from the actual commonwealth structures.

    I have included some borrowed American kit like halftracks and Bazookas - ther was no way I was going to issue PIATs. ;-)

    This is quite an offensive unit.

    The Tank battalions make use of the fast and powerful Comet. Apart from the tanks, there is little anti-tank capability.

    Infantry companies are fairly lightweight with sections intended to make good use of the MGs mounted in their transport. However to make up for the loss of the 60mm mortars each Infantry battalion has the use of a section of Churchill tanks.

    Totals for vehicles:
    156 Comet tank
    20 Churchill tank
    72 Armoured cars and Stuart Recce
    Roughly 160 half-tracks, 50 universal carriers
    12 engineering vehicles
    48 25-pounder, either towed or SP

    Division HQ

    Divisional Recon Squadron
    2x Recon Troop
    5x Stuart Recce
    1x Armoured Car Recon Troop
    6x Daimler Dingo

    3x Armoured Brigades, each brigade:
    Brigade services: Repair shop, signals, RAMC, provost company, etc
    1x Tank Battalion
    1x Recon Squadron
    2x Recon Troop
    5x Stuart Recce
    1x Armoured Car Recon Troop
    6x Daimler Dingo
    4x Cruiser Tank Squadron
    1x Comet tank (Company Commander converted)
    3x Tank Troop
    4x Comet A34 tank


    1x Mechanised Infantry Battalion
    4x Mechanised Infantry Coy
    3x Mechanized Infantry Platoon
    Platoon Command section
    3x Infantry Section
    6x Rifle (or Bazooka)
    3x Sten gun
    1x Bren Gun
    4x M5A1 halftrack (or for one Battalion, Ram Kangaroo)
    1x Machine-gun Platoon
    4x Vickers MG - transport in Universal Carrier
    1x Support Coy
    1x Mortar Platoon
    4x Ordnance 3in Mortar - transport in Universal Carrier
    1x Pioneer Platoon
    2x Pioneer section in half-tracks
    1x Infantry Tank Platoon
    4x Churchill tank
    1x Recce Platoon
    4x Daimler Dingo

    2x Artillery Regiment
    Either Field Regiment, RHA Regiment, or Field Regiment (SP) - as per the historical OOBs this would be 24x towed 25-pounder or 24x SP 25-pounder Sextons.

    1x Engineer Battalion
    2x Pioneer company
    3x Pioneer Platoon
    2x Pioneer section in half-tracks - bazooka, demolition charges, magnetic mines, 'Lifebuoy' flamethrowers etc available from BN stores
    1x Engineering Vehicle company
    2x Infantry Tank Platoon
    4x churchill tank
    2x AVRE platoon
    4x Churchill AVRE (different variants)
    1x Wasp platoon
    4x Wasp Flamethrower Carrier

    1x Anti-Aircraft Battalion
    1x Armoured AA company
    3x Armoured AA platoon
    4x Crusader Mark III AA
    2x Light AA company
    3x Light AA platoon
    4x 30cwt Bofors Carrier
    My board games blog: The Brass Castle

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    • #32
      The Land,

      Have you considered making one brigade Motor Infantry? The British found in North Africa they needed more infantry when the Armor Division was two Armor Brigades. Two Infantry Battalions just was not enough. They also had something called a "Mixed Division" with two Infantry Brigades and one Tank Brigade of Infantry tanks. The New Zealand Division is an example. You might want to add four 6 Pounder Anti Tank guns to each Infantry Battalion. Tanks have a nasty habit of pulling back in the middle of a fight. The AT boys have to stay. Other wise, not too bad a submission.

      American Armor Divisions sometimes added an Infantry Regiment temporarily when they felt the need for more Infantry.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by The Land View Post
        Bazookas - ther was no way I was going to issue PIATs. ;-)
        How was the Bazooka better than a Piat? (Now a Pschrek/Pfaust combo I could understand ..)

        Comment


        • #34
          The bazooka had more range, was considered more reliable, had a faster reload time, and was also considered more portable than the PIAT. That said the PIAT was perfect for nighttime ops, because you couldn't hear or see the launch site unless you were right on top of it.
          Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

          Comment


          • #35
            For all its faults, the PIAT could get better penetration than the Bazooka. In 1944, the bazooka really needed a flank or rear shot to have a chance at disabling German tanks.

            Pruitt1997
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #36
              Gah. My carefully laid-out spaces were messed up by the forum.

              Just to be clear, what I proposed was 3x Armoured brigades each of one Tank Battalion and one Infantry Battalion
              My board games blog: The Brass Castle

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                For all its faults, the PIAT could get better penetration than the Bazooka. In 1944, the bazooka really needed a flank or rear shot to have a chance at disabling German tanks.

                Pruitt1997
                But the better penetration is lost in daylight because of less mobility and slower ROF. At night, the penetration is more important than ROF and mobility, but then WWII armies were never very proficient at operating during darkness. That would be less true for elites like rangers, commandos, and paras, and probably more true for armored divisions such as this.
                Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                  For all its faults, the PIAT could get better penetration than the Bazooka. In 1944, the bazooka really needed a flank or rear shot to have a chance at disabling German tanks.
                  I was under the impression the bazooka's penetration was better than the PIAT's, but I don't really want to derail the thread too much. :-)
                  My board games blog: The Brass Castle

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Hey, the bazooka was carefully avoided by any Americans that had seen it used and not work! The only German tanks of this time that were in danger of a frontal penetration were the Mark III and Mark IV (and you had to be CLOSE!). You also had to make a direct hit as the rocket easily ricocheted away at an angle. They usually handed the Bazooka to replacements who did not know better! The PIAT warhead was 3.25" ,while the Bazooka had a 2.36" warhead. The width of the warhead determines the penetration.

                    In Korea there was a lot of flak because they deployed with the 2.36" Bazooka and the 3.5" was available. If the bazooka round bounced off a T-34-85, it will bounce off a Panther and a Tiger. The 57mm Recoilless Rifle was not any better.

                    Pruitt
                    Last edited by Pruitt; 06 Dec 09, 16:23.
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by The Land View Post
                      So, have been meaning to do this for a while. This is for a Commonwelth army with Commonwealth kit but, of course, diverges much from the actual commonwealth structures.

                      I have included some borrowed American kit like halftracks and Bazookas - ther was no way I was going to issue PIATs. ;-)

                      This is quite an offensive unit.

                      The Tank battalions make use of the fast and powerful Comet. Apart from the tanks, there is little anti-tank capability.

                      Infantry companies are fairly lightweight with sections intended to make good use of the MGs mounted in their transport. However to make up for the loss of the 60mm mortars each Infantry battalion has the use of a section of Churchill tanks.

                      Totals for vehicles:
                      156 Comet tank
                      20 Churchill tank
                      72 Armoured cars and Stuart Recce
                      Roughly 160 half-tracks, 50 universal carriers
                      12 engineering vehicles
                      48 25-pounder, either towed or SP

                      Division HQ

                      Divisional Recon Squadron
                      2x Recon Troop
                      5x Stuart Recce
                      1x Armoured Car Recon Troop
                      6x Daimler Dingo

                      3x Armoured Brigades, each brigade:
                      Brigade services: Repair shop, signals, RAMC, provost company, etc
                      1x Tank Battalion
                      1x Recon Squadron
                      2x Recon Troop
                      5x Stuart Recce
                      1x Armoured Car Recon Troop
                      6x Daimler Dingo
                      4x Cruiser Tank Squadron
                      1x Comet tank (Company Commander converted)
                      3x Tank Troop
                      4x Comet A34 tank


                      1x Mechanised Infantry Battalion
                      4x Mechanised Infantry Coy
                      3x Mechanized Infantry Platoon
                      Platoon Command section
                      3x Infantry Section
                      6x Rifle (or Bazooka)
                      3x Sten gun
                      1x Bren Gun
                      4x M5A1 halftrack (or for one Battalion, Ram Kangaroo)
                      1x Machine-gun Platoon
                      4x Vickers MG - transport in Universal Carrier
                      1x Support Coy
                      1x Mortar Platoon
                      4x Ordnance 3in Mortar - transport in Universal Carrier
                      1x Pioneer Platoon
                      2x Pioneer section in half-tracks
                      1x Infantry Tank Platoon
                      4x Churchill tank
                      1x Recce Platoon
                      4x Daimler Dingo

                      2x Artillery Regiment
                      Either Field Regiment, RHA Regiment, or Field Regiment (SP) - as per the historical OOBs this would be 24x towed 25-pounder or 24x SP 25-pounder Sextons.

                      1x Engineer Battalion
                      2x Pioneer company
                      3x Pioneer Platoon
                      2x Pioneer section in half-tracks - bazooka, demolition charges, magnetic mines, 'Lifebuoy' flamethrowers etc available from BN stores
                      1x Engineering Vehicle company
                      2x Infantry Tank Platoon
                      4x churchill tank
                      2x AVRE platoon
                      4x Churchill AVRE (different variants)
                      1x Wasp platoon
                      4x Wasp Flamethrower Carrier

                      1x Anti-Aircraft Battalion
                      1x Armoured AA company
                      3x Armoured AA platoon
                      4x Crusader Mark III AA
                      2x Light AA company
                      3x Light AA platoon
                      4x 30cwt Bofors Carrier
                      I had chosen 1944 so that Comets and Pershings would not be available to W Allies as I had wanted to see what people would choose for a Normandy campaign with what was available then. However, Comets were available in December 1944, but delayed in being issued due to the Ardennes offensive. Teach me for not being clear .

                      Nice list though .
                      How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                      Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Nick the Noodle View Post
                        I had chosen 1944 so that Comets and Pershings would not be available to W Allies as I had wanted to see what people would choose for a Normandy campaign with what was available then. However, Comets were available in December 1944, but delayed in being issued due to the Ardennes offensive. Teach me for not being clear .
                        With no Comets available I would probably stick with the historical mixed troops of Sherman V and Firefly.

                        This would probably necessitate giving the infantry battalions back the 17-pounder batteries which are currently lacking. The infantry would probably be screaming for them anyway!

                        However, the basic idea - evenly balanced infantry and armour formations, integrated in lightweight brigades to assist co-operation - would remain the same.
                        My board games blog: The Brass Castle

                        Comment

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