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  • Battle of Britain

    During the battle of britain, the RAF was taking heavy casualties. At one point in time, it was estimated that should the current losses keep up, the entire RAF would be wiped out in less then six weeks, thus leaving Britain open to attack. However, Hitler choose to abandon the assault against the RAF and instead turned his attention to bombing London. What do you think would have happened had Hitler continued to attack the RAF and bomb London after the RAF was defeated? I think it would have only prolonged the war as hitler made some other mistakes later on in the war. However, there still is a chance that without air power, Britain could've been taken. This could've changed the course of the war, but I doubt the British would be taken that easily. I believe that eventually the Americans and Canadians would take Britain, however, it would be an extremely hard, dangerous, and long undertaking. Anyways, what do you think would happen. Or what would've you done.

  • #2
    I think the RAF might have been destroyed as a cohesive fighting force, but it still wouldn't have allowed Sea Lion to be successful and still would have pin-pricked Goering to death. Assuming Sea Lion was actualy launched, I think you could have expected a last ditch go-for-broke attack by the RAF knowing they had to stop it at the source rather than after they'd landed and the channel would be so full of ships and planes from both sides that they could walk the second wave over the wreckage to the English coast.

    From most things I've read, all Hitler really ever wanted was Britain to let him do as he pleased on the continent (against the Red), he never really wanted to occupy the Isle, he just needed them out of the war so his backside was secure.
    If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by chrisvalla
      I think the RAF might have been destroyed as a cohesive fighting force, but it still wouldn't have allowed Sea Lion to be successful and still would have pin-pricked Goering to death. Assuming Sea Lion was actualy launched, I think you could have expected a last ditch go-for-broke attack by the RAF knowing they had to stop it at the source rather than after they'd landed and the channel would be so full of ships and planes from both sides that they could walk the second wave over the wreckage to the English coast.

      From most things I've read, all Hitler really ever wanted was Britain to let him do as he pleased on the continent (against the Red), he never really wanted to occupy the Isle, he just needed them out of the war so his backside was secure.
      Agree with everything you've said here.

      Sea Lion was impossible, even with air superiority - you can't transport an entire Army across the Channel in just a couple of rowboats - Germany just didn't have the ships or the boats to do it, and if they had somehow managed to establish a beachhead, the Royal Navy would have slammed the door shut behind it - isolating them from any hope of reinforcement.

      Besides, Churchill said in his memoirs that if the Germany Army had landed on the beaches, he would have used poison gas.

      Dr. S.
      Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

      www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

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      • #4
        Churchill didnt mess around when it came to the defence of his nation, We need leaders like that now here in the states ones that will do what ever it takes to protect this nation.:armed:

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        • #5
          Yeah, I agree that the invasion would probably be futile. I was just wondering if anyone thought it'd suceed. We do need some more leaders like Curchill nowadays. Life was so much better back then, simpler and all, and people had much better values.

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          • #6
            Re: Battle of Britain

            Originally posted by prclimber
            During the battle of britain, the RAF was taking heavy casualties. At one point in time, it was estimated that should the current losses keep up, the entire RAF would be wiped out in less then six weeks, thus leaving Britain open to attack. However, Hitler choose to abandon the assault against the RAF and instead turned his attention to bombing London. What do you think would have happened had Hitler continued to attack the RAF and bomb London after the RAF was defeated? I think it would have only prolonged the war as hitler made some other mistakes later on in the war. However, there still is a chance that without air power, Britain could've been taken. This could've changed the course of the war, but I doubt the British would be taken that easily. I believe that eventually the Americans and Canadians would take Britain, however, it would be an extremely hard, dangerous, and long undertaking. Anyways, what do you think would happen. Or what would've you done.
            Even had the RAF been functionally neutralized, the fact remains that the Nazis had no amphibious doctrine, no known amphibious craft, no officers with any theoretic knowledge of amphibious operations, never mind real-world experience. As well, the Royal Navy controlled the English Channel, as they did much of the European waterways. England was indeed, "the unsinkable aircraft carrier", and would not fall to the Nazis.
            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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            • #7
              Even if the attacks on the airfields had continued, rather than diverting bombers to London I think it would have been difficult to really wipe out fighter command. I think either more pilots would have been diverted from bombers, more Czech/Polish pilots would have been used (whether or not they could speak English) or more pilots would have been transferred from Northern England/Scotland.

              Even in the extreme case that Germany did gain air superiority it still had no way to get an amphibious assault force ashore due to its complete lack of suitable crafts and the dominance of the Royal Navy.
              Lance W.

              Peace through superior firepower.

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              • #8
                Forgetting Norway

                Yes, the Germans had very limited Naval transport capabilities, but they pulled Norway off anyway! What makes you think they could not do likewise across the English Channel?
                If the Germans had kept on pounding the RAF, like they did early on in the Battle Of Brittian, and paid more attention the the Radar stations, they very well could have crippled the RAF in Southern England. Remember, they came very close in doing so, just before the switch to bombing London started.
                With control of the air over Southern England, and absolute control of the air over the English Channel, I believe the Germans could have invaded Southern England. Once airfields were captured and made operational, the German control of the air over Southern England would have been absolute.
                The conquest of the rest of England would have taked less than a year, that is if the English did not come to terms with the Germans before then.
                Germany would have done far better taking England out of the picture during the 1940/1941 period, than they did invading Russia in 1941.
                The one thing I have never understood about the Battle of Brittian, is why the Germans did not use drop tanks on the Bf-109?
                The Germany had used drop tanks on the Bf-109 B's and C's in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They understood the need and advantages then, why not three years later? The Germans had the technology and practical experience to use drop tanks in 1940. Just why weren't they used then?
                Regards, Gregg

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                • #9
                  Air Power

                  We have to remember that modern wars are won by a coalition of forces rather then just one single branch of the armed forces. Hitler didn't have the navy to take over Britain nor the airborne forces. I've never seen a reasonable simulation of Germany taking over Britain.
                  O people, know you have committed great sins and the great ones among you have committed these sins. If you ask proof of my words then I shall tell you: I am the punishment of God. If you hadn't committed these sins I would not be here.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Forgetting Norway

                    Originally posted by Gregg
                    .....One thing I have never understood about the Battle of Brittian, is why the Germans did not use drop tanks on the Bf-109?
                    The Germany had used drop tanks on the Bf-109 B's and C's in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They understood the need and advantages then, why not three years later? The Germans had the technology and practical experience to use drop tanks in 1940. Just why weren't they used then?
                    Regards, Gregg
                    I was wondering the same thing. The current issue of Aviation History has an article about the Condor Legion in Spain and drop tanks were regularly used. Adolf Galland even had them filled with fuel and oil and strapped a 22kg bomb on them and made a makeshift napalm bomb.........why this wasn't used in the Battle of Britain is beyond me.
                    Lance W.

                    Peace through superior firepower.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Forgetting Norway

                      Originally posted by Lance Williams
                      I was wondering the same thing. The current issue of Aviation has an article about the Condor Legion in Spain and drop tanks were regularly used. Adolf Galland even had them filled with fuel and oil and strapped a 22kg bomb on them and made a makeshift napalm bomb.........why this wasn't used in the Battle of Britain is beyond me.
                      My recollection was that there was little faith in the leaking, poorly made tanks. Pilots felt they were like time bombs, waiting for the first enemy bullet to ignite them. Further, for the forward units, by the time they got to altitude, they likely would have had to drop them anyway, once they encountered the Hurricanes and Spits, rendering them useless, and wasting precious fuel.
                      Retreat hell, we just got here. Every Marine, a rifleman.

                      Never let the facts get in the way of the truth.

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                      • #12
                        Even if the Germans had managed to mount an invasion of England they only had enough men and equipment to capture the southern part of the country. The British people would have turned any battle for the city of London into a Western version of the Battle of Stalingrad. If the Germans managed to win that battle there is still the rest of the country to deal with. Holding England would have been a monumental drain on German manpower and equipment. They would have faced harassment and sabotage everywhere.

                        An all out invasion of England would also have helped Roosevelt immeasurably. Even the staunches isolationist could not have ignored that, waking up the "sleeping giant" across the Atlantic far sooner.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Zorak2
                          Even if the Germans had managed to mount an invasion of England they only had enough men and equipment to capture the southern part of the country. The British people would have turned any battle for the city of London into a Western version of the Battle of Stalingrad. If the Germans managed to win that battle there is still the rest of the country to deal with. Holding England would have been a monumental drain on German manpower and equipment. They would have faced harassment and sabotage everywhere.

                          An all out invasion of England would also have helped Roosevelt immeasurably. Even the staunches isolationist could not have ignored that, waking up the "sleeping giant" across the Atlantic far sooner.
                          The British army at the time had practically no equipment, no artillery, virtually no tanks. They were begging the U.S. for rifles. The civilian population in the UK wasn’t like the U.S. where every house had at least one gun. If the Germans had gotten ashore the British army would have had a hard time stopping them. In an earlier post Dr. S pointed out that Churchill would have used gas on the Germans. Imagine what London would have been like with both sides throwing around gas.

                          As for the British fleet stopping the invasion, wouldn’t have happened. At no time was a fleet able to operate in an area where the enemy held air superiority. If the fleet had sailed into the channel they would have found it empty (the invasion ships would be in hiding) and the entire Luftwaffe over head. The losses would have destroyed the greatest fleet in the world. Which would not have convinced the United States that Britain was going to win that war.
                          Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                          • #14
                            Re: Forgetting Norway

                            Originally posted by Gregg
                            Yes, the Germans had very limited Naval transport capabilities, but they pulled Norway off anyway! What makes you think they could not do likewise across the English Channel?
                            If the Germans had kept on pounding the RAF, like they did early on in the Battle Of Brittian, and paid more attention the the Radar stations, they very well could have crippled the RAF in Southern England. Remember, they came very close in doing so, just before the switch to bombing London started.
                            With control of the air over Southern England, and absolute control of the air over the English Channel, I believe the Germans could have invaded Southern England. Once airfields were captured and made operational, the German control of the air over Southern England would have been absolute.
                            The conquest of the rest of England would have taked less than a year, that is if the English did not come to terms with the Germans before then.
                            Germany would have done far better taking England out of the picture during the 1940/1941 period, than they did invading Russia in 1941.
                            The one thing I have never understood about the Battle of Brittian, is why the Germans did not use drop tanks on the Bf-109?
                            The Germany had used drop tanks on the Bf-109 B's and C's in Spain during the Spanish Civil War. They understood the need and advantages then, why not three years later? The Germans had the technology and practical experience to use drop tanks in 1940. Just why weren't they used then?
                            Regards, Gregg
                            Britain vs. Norway

                            Hmmm,

                            The British Armed Forces massively dwarfed the Norwegians, so comparing the two is apples and orange. A modern, mechanized army, with susbtantial air support fairly overwhelmed the much smaller Norwegian army, much as they did Denamrk and the Netherlands. This they could not do with the Brits.
                            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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                            • #15
                              Re: Re: Forgetting Norway

                              Originally posted by hogdriver
                              Britain vs. Norway

                              Hmmm,

                              The British Armed Forces massively dwarfed the Norwegians, so comparing the two is apples and orange. A modern, mechanized army, with susbtantial air support fairly overwhelmed the much smaller Norwegian army, much as they did Denamrk and the Netherlands. This they could not do with the Brits.
                              Did they? Just how many FULLY equipped and trained divisions were there in Britain in say September 1940? 2 maybe 3? The navy rescued the troops in operation Dynamo but their weapons and equipment was left on the beaches of Dunkirk. The Whermacht might not have found it as hard as many believe if they had made it ashore.
                              Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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