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The European Backwater

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  • The European Backwater

    Instead of Rome splitting into East and West and then the West crumbling, let's imagine that Rome never split into two, and so when it fell, it all fell. How would things be different without a Byzantine Empire?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Exalted Form View Post
    Instead of Rome splitting into East and West and then the West crumbling, let's imagine that Rome never split into two, and so when it fell, it all fell. How would things be different without a Byzantine Empire?
    Well the Turks would have definitely become the ruler of the Balkans much quicker. However, how exactly would this happen? Are you implying that with the fall of Rome the western Romans just sort of crumble? Which is highly unrealistic. But amusing they did the Turks would rule the Balkans and possibly beyond. They'd only have the Huns and other barbaric tribes to appose them. Certainly if the Turks went as far as Germany or even France the Moores could have defeated Charles Martel at Tours. Meaning there would be no Holy Roman Empire, and Europe would be Muslim land for the remaining years. No WW1? No WW2? No USSR!? With Europe under Muslim rule at this time would America have been discovered? In my opinion the World as we know it would be incredibly different. Muslims would rule Europe and Africa. And North America would only be inhabited natives. Would the Aztecs push farther North into Texas and Arizona?
    A wild liberal appears! Conservative uses logical reasoning and empirical evidence! It's super effective! Wild liberal faints.

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    • #3
      Constantinople becomes the beacon of Christianity

      Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
      Well the Turks would have definitely become the ruler of the Balkans much quicker. However, how exactly would this happen? Are you implying that with the fall of Rome the western Romans just sort of crumble? Which is highly unrealistic. But amusing they did the Turks would rule the Balkans and possibly beyond. They'd only have the Huns and other barbaric tribes to appose them. Certainly if the Turks went as far as Germany or even France the Moores could have defeated Charles Martel at Tours. Meaning there would be no Holy Roman Empire, and Europe would be Muslim land for the remaining years. No WW1? No WW2? No USSR!? With Europe under Muslim rule at this time would America have been discovered? In my opinion the World as we know it would be incredibly different. Muslims would rule Europe and Africa. And North America would only be inhabited natives. Would the Aztecs push farther North into Texas and Arizona?
      With a stronger economic base and better access to the asian trade routes the hope of the west is that the Byzantine Emire develops a more militant philosophy, one that avoids the Great Schism of 1054. This would lead to the final victory over Islam and the final reclamation of the Holy Land.
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      • #4
        He said WITHOUT a Byzantine Empire.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AThousandYoung View Post
          He said WITHOUT a Byzantine Empire.
          Yes exactly this is not possible at all with the fall of the Roman Empire in its entirity. As to North America not being discovered if Europe is entirely Islamisised. Don't confuse the more recent occurences of inward looking ness of the Islamic culture with that of the middle ages. In many respects Jews and Christians were more at liberty to practice their faiths in Islamic lands in the Middle Ages than was the reverse. They were highly advanced with a great development in science, maths, medicine, advanced architecture and of course traders. Indeed more advanced than Christendom was largely until the renaissance when the roles began to reverse. This would suggest to me that it quite conceivable that Anglo Saxon or Mediterranean peoples would have been just as inclined to go looking around further than just their back door whether Allah was the main guy or not.

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          • #6
            If you posit no Byzantine Empire I think more likely is a rise of some central southern European power, such as a Theodoric Ostrogoth Empire and a Frankish power. Given time to consolidate power and strenghten relations with the Catholic faith, recall Theodoric's conversion from Arianism, a quicker collapse of Rome could lead to a quicker revival of Europe. Perhaps enough to slap around the Huns when they popped up.

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            • #7
              Another thought that occurs. If Roman power totally collapses then you can envision a Persian/Zoroastrian expansion from Persia through Asia Minor and perhaps Syria. Without its dibilitating war with the Byzantines it holds off Islam to a standstill, leaving a Persia in Asia Minor/Iran, Islam in Arabia and North Africa, and Christians Europe- with the site of Constantinople area and Mediterranean islands key contentions of the three civilizations. Future expansions of the three civilizations could be Christians into northern/eastern Europe, Islam into Africa, Zoroastrians into south Asia.

              Interesting speculation as to whether the Christians, Moslems, or even Chinese Civilization first effectively colonizes the western hemisphere.
              Last edited by Tuor; 27 Oct 09, 09:33.

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              • #8
                I suspect that last is the most likely. Persia picks up the pieces of the eastern Roman empire. Perhaps not the core Greek territorys of west Anatolia and Greece, those might either be a Germanic kingdom for a while, or eventually emerge as a Greek state/s.

                Persia would exercise direct or indirect control of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Palestine, ect... & perhaps deflect expansionist Islam. Or adopt Islam & become the cultural center of a larger Caliphate.

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                • #9
                  Why assume Islam develops at all? Perhaps with the absences of the Byzantium a new power arrives in the Middle East and someone kills Mohammad's great-great grandfather. Unlike many other world religions Islam basically started and developed at a very specific time and place and might not have occurred at all if the prophet never appeared.

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