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  • #31
    I can see Germany and Russia being allies in WWII. I remember in the history Channel that Stalin did not believe his own intelligence that Hitler was attacking. HE ignored his intelligence for TWO DAYS before he did anything!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by German-Knight View Post
      I can see Germany and Russia being allies in WWII. I remember in the history Channel that Stalin did not believe his own intelligence that Hitler was attacking. HE ignored his intelligence for TWO DAYS before he did anything!
      This one is a non-starter. Given one-nut's commitment to his master plan and ratzi ideology, lebensraum and untermenschen and all that, the attack on the Soviets is a given.

      The neutrality pact signed between the two is simply a convenience that allows the German to take care of other matters first.

      Stalin ignored intelligence and more for longer than two days. That doesn't change the ratzi master plan one iota.

      Dennis
      If stupid was a criminal offense Sea Lion believers would be doing life.

      Shouting out to Half Pint for bringing back the big mugs!

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      • #33
        D1J1, MRP is quite a bit more than a neutrality pact. It was an agreement by both to breach quite a few other treaties to divide countries. Hitler and Stalin cooperated and acted in concert to achieve the goals of MRP. For example all of Stalin's ultimatum's were backed up by Hitler's diplomatic efforts and sometimes very concrete threats (for example Hitler made it absolutely clear he would blockade any attempts trying to get aid to the Baltic States by sea - Finland lost a lot of effort and time figuring out alternative routes). Obviously MRP doesn't compare to AngloAmerican alliance, but it is not dissimilar from the later alliance between the Soviets and AnloAmericans.

        We of course all know that Hitler chose to betray Stalin. It was his biggest mistake against which he was warned by many of his closest circle. It is only in hindsight that you can claim that this move was a given. At the time it came as a surprise to most. There were plenty of people advising Hitler not to make this move and there's evidence that Hitler was not at all sure he was making the right move (which he of course wasn't).

        Of course where was a lot of antagonism between the two before MRP and that's why MRP was such a surprise. But at the same time there were considerable similarities and common goals. Hitler and Nazis spewed out all sort of nonsense in his speeches, bulletins and articles. So did the Soviets. There was an obvious element of exaggeration, propaganda and incitement to all of it. While Hitler went more bonkers the more certain his eventual downfall became (whereas he started to believe more and more the nonsense he fed to the people), I do think that there was an element of shrewdness in him and describing him as some crazed lunatic doing things at random is a mischaracterisation. Perhaps its an accurate description of his last year, but it does not describe his early war form.

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        • #34
          Its not about HOW it could have happened, but what would have happened next.

          I don't see the British Empire standing up to a united thrust from all Four nations, and the whole of Eurasia and probably Africa would have been in their hands before the US historically entered the war.

          Don't you think that in itself would have been one hell of an incentive?
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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