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  • Russia joins Axis

    What if Russia Joined the Axis Powers?
    -Viper

    Be Advised...I'm mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and **** napalm, and can put a round in a flea's ass at 200 meters.

  • #2
    It would affect the European and Pacific Theatre

    Germany would have one less Front to cover...
    -Viper

    Be Advised...I'm mean, nasty, and tired. I eat concertina wire and **** napalm, and can put a round in a flea's ass at 200 meters.

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    • #3
      When and how long for? It strikes me that this would be an alliance of convenience, especially given the existence of the 'Anti-Comintern Pact'. The latter might not matter depending on when this momentous event occurs.
      Signing out.

      Comment


      • #4
        For the first two years of the war, it was more or less a fact. After the fall of France, things started going wrong, mutual suspicion (well founded) doomed the partnership.... but it didn't have to.

        Italy's foul-ups in the Med were chronic by early 1941, and the stop-gap measures put in place by Germany had little chance of solving that mess.

        So, here is a proposition; Germany, Italy, Russia and Japan have a summit, and decide to carve up the British Empire along the lines agreed to in the coming summer.

        Italy; Egypt and parts of Africa.
        Germany; Other parts of Africa, and the Middle East.
        Russia; India, and Northern Persia as well.
        Japan; As was the case in the war.

        Access? Start with Turkey. Tough fighters, but with an Army devoid of modern weapons. Split between Germany and Russia, if would have provided a fine stepping-stone to the rest of the world.

        Thank goodness they didn't to it, eh?
        "Why is the Rum gone?"

        -Captain Jack

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        • #5
          Well, let's see:

          Russia hates Japan.
          Germany wants "libenstraum" and that is in Russia / Ukrane etc.
          Invading Turkey and moving into the Middle East is beyond German and Italian logistical means.
          While Turkey might fall this leaves Germany with no real access to anything. The Germans have no merchant fleet or navy in the Med so they are dependent on a recalcitrent Italy for shipping in most cases. They cannot escort their own convoys even if they get merchant ships for the purpose.
          Japan is still going to mostly be tied up on land in China and their naval forces still face the equally strong and growing stronger US.
          Italy couldn't take Greece successfully on their own. How will they manage to do anything useful against the British?

          Basically, this changes little. It just leaves Britain in the position of being unable to retake the European contintient. It would make the US doing so alot more difficult too. In the long run, Germany gets nuked off the planet, Japan loses their war to the US and the US and Russia end up either dukeing it out or in a cold war like the historical one.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Viper View Post
            What if Russia Joined the Axis Powers?
            A win for the Axis side,after wwII is won by the axis, there would be a cold war between-Russia and Germany over who will be the coquers of Europe.

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            • #7
              This was the case for the first two years, so I presume the question is that what if neither betrayed the other during the war and Soviets continue supplying Hitler.

              Battle of Britain failed despite the conditions being the above. Hitler would've had much more resources for Afrika Korps and eventually this would've forced Britain to sue for peace. With Germany not fighting the Soviets FDR would've probably taken a more guarded approach and not fight Germany. US might've just fight Japan who would be unlikely to be aided by the Soviets.

              Cold war between Germany and Soviet Union? Quite possible. Stalin and Hitler would've both wanted to be the top dog. OTOH its not impossible that there would've been some sort of progressive ideological convergence at least for awhile. After all their ideological differences were mostly in small details. Maybe the relationship would've been something like between Soviets and China?

              How would've all of the above affected politics in Britain and US? Those admiring socialists would've certainly gained much.

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              • #8
                FDR would've probably taken a more guarded approach and not fight Germany
                FDR did not declare war on Germany. Germany declared war on the US.
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                  Well, let's see:

                  Russia hates Japan.
                  Germany wants "libenstraum" and that is in Russia / Ukrane etc.
                  Invading Turkey and moving into the Middle East is beyond German and Italian logistical means.
                  While Turkey might fall this leaves Germany with no real access to anything. The Germans have no merchant fleet or navy in the Med so they are dependent on a recalcitrent Italy for shipping in most cases. They cannot escort their own convoys even if they get merchant ships for the purpose.
                  Japan is still going to mostly be tied up on land in China and their naval forces still face the equally strong and growing stronger US.
                  Italy couldn't take Greece successfully on their own. How will they manage to do anything useful against the British?

                  Basically, this changes little. It just leaves Britain in the position of being unable to retake the European contintient. It would make the US doing so alot more difficult too. In the long run, Germany gets nuked off the planet, Japan loses their war to the US and the US and Russia end up either dukeing it out or in a cold war like the historical one.
                  Couldn't agree more. I can't see any long-term future in such a quadruple alliance given the diametrically opposed ideologies and the Nazi's stated long term aim of Eastward expansion and rule by 'pure' blood Germans.
                  Signing out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                    FDR did not declare war on Germany. Germany declared war on the US.
                    Indeed. But with US naval vessels supporting the Royal Navy in the Atlantic and the 'Lend-Lease' scheme seemingly specifically aimed against Germany Roosevelt could hardly be described as 'neutral' in the conflict.
                    Signing out.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The only way I see that happening is if the whites won the civil war which would eliminate the communists from the equation. Then the fascist party that takes power in Germany would have to NOT be the Nazi's. Overall its really unlikely.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                        Couldn't agree more. I can't see any long-term future in such a quadruple alliance given the diametrically opposed ideologies and the Nazi's stated long term aim of Eastward expansion and rule by 'pure' blood Germans.
                        Had Great Britain bombed the Russian oil fields, like Churchill wanted, it very well may have come down to the Russians joining the Axis.
                        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                        • #13
                          It'd never happen. Hitler used the non-aggression pact to keep Stalin off his back while he devoured Western Europe. Sooner or later one would've stuck a knife in the other. Given their mutual hatred and shared frontier it was inevitable.
                          Indyref2 - still, "Yes."

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                          • #14
                            HalfPint, I didn't say FDR declared war. But his policies were such that US had effectively entered war by the time Germany declared it. If the situation were different he probably would have been more reserved.

                            While communists and national socialist and social democrat all hated each other guts, the first and the second are closest in terms of ideology, and I am not at all certain it is accurate to describe Stalin and Hitler hating each other. I think they were more admiring each other.

                            I agree though that it doesn't seem like too likely scenario that the two could've maintain their alliance. Suvorov has made a career out of his claims that Stalin was poised to attack Hitler immediately, but Suvorov's sloppy work has been pretty much discredited. While that doesn't mean that Stalin was not poised to attack (it just proves Suvorov is a hack), but if Stalin really wasn't poised to attack, then the alliance could've logically continue for as long as Hitler chooses to do so. There were plenty of Nazis opposed to the invasion and urging Hitler to drop the plan.

                            How long should the alliance have lasted for Britain to bail out? If Hitler isn't preparing for Barbarossa, Afrika Korps could have been much more effective. Could Rommel have conquered Egypt by the end of 1942 without Barbarossa? With Egypt and Suez lost and without US intervention, would Churchill continue? Would he have enough support to do so?

                            Nazis got plenty of Lebensraum in Poland. I think the reason for Barbarossa was not so much Lebensraum, which was more propaganda tool for internal consumption, but on one hand the fear that Stalin would strike and on the other hand overconfidence brought by the early quick successes of Nazis as opposed to Soviet failure in Winter War.
                            Last edited by pp(est); 21 Sep 09, 12:39.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                              Had Great Britain bombed the Russian oil fields, like Churchill wanted, it very well may have come down to the Russians joining the Axis.
                              Or the insane creation of an expeditionary force to support the Finns against the Soviet invasion. It was days away from sailing iirc.
                              Signing out.

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