Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Pacific War of 1937

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Pacific War of 1937

    Stung by the occupation of the Rhineland in 1936 and Italys imperial designs. Britian and France decide to make a stand over Japans new 1937 war with China. They hope to intimidate Japan into backing down with the combined strength of their navys, economic sanctions, and a commitment of long term support to Chinas Nationallist government.

    Japan refuses to lose face and DoW are made.

    How does this play out in terms of military operations and global politics? The one specification I have at this pointis that the situation plays out relatively quicky and the three nations are at war before then of 1937, so only a few months are availble for preperation.

  • #2
    Big Problem; did the Japanese have the kind of aircraft that would allow them to operate as they did in 1941? (relative to the opposition, I mean) Without that, I don't see them standing much of a chance.
    "Why is the Rum gone?"

    -Captain Jack

    Comment


    • #3
      The French and British would never weaken their home defenses to defend far flung colonies. They would have underestimated the Japanese capabilities, like they always did, and still sent 2nd rate troops and equipment that gets mauled.

      Likewise, the RN air arm is limited to swordfish bi-planes and the French lacking any semblance of a carrier force. Add to the big-gun thinking of these navies, any expeditionary naval force would be mauled by the Kido Butai.
      Last edited by IDonT4; 14 Sep 09, 14:30.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Japanese didn't have the Zero till early 41, but the aircraft they had were certainly more than a match for the air force the Nationalist threw up which were mainly Russian. It would have taken the British and French some time to transfer their battle fleets to the east not to mention any troops. Then they would be fighting the Japanese close to the home islands. Russia at that time is having show trials and the army is in no shape to fight. Only hope is to somehow draw the USA into the fight.

        I'll put my money on the Japanese in 1937 to at least hold their own.

        Comment


        • #5
          Which is why I asked my question.

          The planes of 1937 were a far cry from the sleek monoplanes of 1941. What types were available, and how capable were they?

          Could the RN's 3 battle-cruisers have brushed-aside Japan's 4 Kongo-class BCs?

          How would French and British submarines have fared compared to what the IJN had at the time?

          Would Allied aircraft have been able to operate in China, or would they be restricted to Indo-China and Malaysia?

          What would Siam have done in 1937? It would be a huge risk with huge potential benefits if they had sided with Japan.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
            Which is why I asked my question.

            The planes of 1937 were a far cry from the sleek monoplanes of 1941. What types were available, and how capable were they?

            Could the RN's 3 battle-cruisers have brushed-aside Japan's 4 Kongo-class BCs?

            How would French and British submarines have fared compared to what the IJN had at the time?

            Would Allied aircraft have been able to operate in China, or would they be restricted to Indo-China and Malaysia?

            What would Siam have done in 1937? It would be a huge risk with huge potential benefits if they had sided with Japan.
            The IJN introduced the Mitsubishi A5M, the precursor tothe Zero, the world's first carrier based monoplane. The RN were still using the swordfish in their carriers.

            The Kongos (only 3 as the Heie was used as a training vessel as per Naval Treaty) were up armored with torpedo bulges and thicker deck armor and considered as battleships.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
              The IJN introduced the Mitsubishi A5M, the precursor tothe Zero, the world's first carrier based monoplane. The RN were still using the swordfish in their carriers.

              The Kongos (only 3 as the Heie was used as a training vessel as per Naval Treaty) were up armored with torpedo bulges and thicker deck armor and considered as battleships.
              Yes, yes, I know about the Swordfish; that was a torpedo bomber, no a fighter. What were the Japanes using to drop Torpedoes that year?

              All three of the British ships had 15" guns, and to those we should add the brand-new Dunkerque class, French BCs that were faster then either group and had eight modern 13" guns.

              The IJN's remaining big-gun fleet rests on its excellent Heavy Cruisers and just 6 Battleships... things are starting to look ify...
              "Why is the Rum gone?"

              -Captain Jack

              Comment


              • #8
                I believe the navy used the T-96 Claude, monoplane with fixed landing gear, I believe the army used the Nate and the Nell bomber was available, which later gained fame in the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse. It's going to be a long supply line for the Br/Fr.
                Last edited by tcox; 14 Sep 09, 15:19.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                  Yes, yes, I know about the Swordfish; that was a torpedo bomber, no a fighter. What were the Japanes using to drop Torpedoes that year?

                  All three of the British ships had 15" guns, and to those we should add the brand-new Dunkerque class, French BCs that were faster then either group and had eight modern 13" guns.

                  The IJN's remaining big-gun fleet rests on its excellent Heavy Cruisers and just 6 Battleships... things are starting to look ify...
                  The Swordfish was the only plane capable of flying of RN carriers, there were no others. The Kate torpedo bomber was put in service in 1937.

                  In addition to the Kongos, the IJN had Fuso, Yamashiro, Ise, Hyuga, Nagato, and Mutsu. All had 14" guns except for the Nagato and Mutsu which had 16".

                  Then there is the Long Lance torpedoes.
                  Last edited by IDonT4; 14 Sep 09, 15:29.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    They navy also used the Type 89 torpedo bomber

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here is how its going to play out:

                      The Japanese continues to gain ground in China while the IJN holds a defensive action. Knowing the naval thinking of the times, the French and British fleets (which would be a Battleship centric force with carriers as support) would assemble in Singapore. If this fleet sorties within range of land base aircraft in Taiwan, it will be sunk.

                      Once the Chinese front is stabilized, an offensive against UK's and French holdiings is launch with similar effect as it did during 1942. The combined French and English fleet sorties and is sunk via airpower from land based aircraft in the South China sea. Panic grips the colonies and it won't be long until it falls.
                      Last edited by IDonT4; 14 Sep 09, 16:04.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Land-based aircraft in the South China Seas?

                        Uh huh.... riiiiiiight.
                        Seeing as how Japan had only just reached Nanking, where exactly are these planes coming from?!?

                        Anybody else out there got some ideas?
                        "Why is the Rum gone?"

                        -Captain Jack

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                          Land-based aircraft in the South China Seas?

                          Uh huh.... riiiiiiight.
                          Seeing as how Japan had only just reached Nanking, where exactly are these planes coming from?!?

                          Anybody else out there got some ideas?
                          Taiwan and South China

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
                            Taiwan and South China
                            Taiwan yes

                            China is iffy. Japan started seizing the ports along Chinas coast in 1937 in a series of combined naval/army operations. Not all were taken that year and many did not have airfields that would sustain significant military air operations. By mid 1938 Japanses air operations could have been important from South China. However The Allied fleet would have interfered with the Japanese attempts to capture these port cities. Canton would be particularly tough in the face of Allied naval ops.

                            Originally posted by ;1308826
                            How would French and British submarines have fared compared to what the IJN had at the time?
                            In the 1930s all thre navys were build two classes of submarines. Smaller coastal defense & fleet auxillary types, and large long range crusier types.

                            japan used all its submarines as fleet compnents they wer to act as scouts for the surface fleet, and were to look for opportunities to attack enemy captitol ships. This the doctrine Japan used in WWII. As fleet scouts the submarines wree not nearly as valuable as hoped. They did suceeed in sinking two US carrier and knocking others out of action for many months in 1942. So that aspect was a bit more sucessfull.

                            The Brits also thought to use their large crusier subs as fleet scouts, but were more willing to consider them as independant raiders. Post war analysis suggests the British submarine commanders were far better trained than any others in technical matters and tactics. So maybe they could have had a early impact against Japans military and merchant fleets.

                            France had a smaller number of the large cruisier type subs. What their skill or doctrine might have been I cant say.

                            QUOTE=;1308826]Would Allied aircraft have been able to operate in China, or would they be restricted to Indo-China and Malaysia?[/QUOTE]

                            As long as the railroad between Haiphong and Chinas interior remained in Allied hands air groups could be set up and sustained in China. If Canton remained under Chinas control then the Allies could send a army corps or two into China as well as a fair sized air force.

                            Originally posted by ;1308826
                            I'll put my money on the Japanese in 1937 to at least hold their own.
                            Tough call. A lot of variables and possible outcomes in fleet actions. A lot of what should be called wild cards. Also a lot of things that were valid in 1941 or 1942 would not be in 1937.

                            The superiorityof Japanese pilots in 1942 deveoped out of experince over China. In 1937 that experience did not exist. Like the French the Japanese airmen of 1937 were very well trained pilots, but had obsolete combat training. Their tactics were only a little evolved beyond WWI and the Japanese of 1937 did not have even that experince. Fighter tactics consisted of entire squadrons or smaller flights of six to nine aircraft playing follow the leader in V or Line formations. The deadly Leader/Wingman and Finger Four tactics of WWII were not well understood by the Japanese or anyone else in 1937.

                            Japanese air reconissance for their fleet was indifferent in WWII. There were several notable failures in 1942. During operation C in March, and during the Midway battle in May are two famous examples. They also had difficulty spotting the USN carrier raids between December and April.

                            Operating aircraft carriers as a group had not occured to anyone in 1937. The Japanese did not begain training with two or more carriers as a single corrdinated strike group until 1940 and did not master the basic techniques until 1941. So, carrier strikes in 1937 will be small and not well coordinated by 1942 standards. Take a look at the British efforts vs the Bismarck or against the Italian fleet to understand what carrier ops would look like for the Japanese in 1937.

                            While the British had some trouble with breaking the Geman Enigma radio encryption system Japans military was still using old fashioned code books in 1937. Unlike the Germans who the Brits ignored for most of the intewar years Japans radio traffic was of interest. While I dont know the details here it is not impossible either British or French had broken some of Japans many military codes. Japan had a poor history of code breaking in WWII. However they did show some skill at radio traffic analysis. Their signals intercept analysts were able to predict the USN carriers would sortie in a raid on Japans home island in April 1942. but they lacked the correct date for the strike. How that would translate to 1937 is anyones guess. The Brtish were good on the technical side of traffic analysis but the admirals did not make good use of it. ie: the analysists correctly identified that the Scharnhorst and Geisneau would sortie in April 1940 but they were not believed, resulting in a aircraft carrier ambushed & sunk.
                            Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 15 Sep 09, 00:24.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I suspect here that Japan must either decisively win this in a few months or as for terms.

                              Nothing definative yet, but it appears Japan in 1937 did not have the reserve of critical material in the home islands as it did in 1941. Coal, and on hand stocks of critical metals seem to have ammounted to a couple months worth in early or mid 1937. In 1941 Japan had accumulated a years worth of critical raw materials, more in some items. While in the this 1937 scenario the Franco/Brit alliance cannot impose a close in blockade of Japans ports they can severely interfere with Japans trade gobally their influence in the worlds banking and business will interfere with purchases, interfere with Japanese ships taking on cargos. Political influence globally will interfere with third party merchant ships taking on cargo for Japan. Their global network of naval bases allows patrols to track down and capture or sink Japanese cargo ships. Japan is going to have secure sea connections to its territories in Manchuria and the to the USSR. From its few small bases in the Central Pacific it can try to keep a open route to the South Pacific or South America but it will not be easy.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X