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Hitler the Great?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ELLE View Post
    Hitler would have been more of a hero in the furture for the german people,not so sure in being the greatest german ever lived,can't ever see Hitler being a Winton Churchill.
    Even if Hitler behave himself with the Munich agreement & never invadied any other countries,Hitler would have still destroyed the jewish race.
    Well, you raise a very important point. While previous to Krystalnicht sp? I don't believe the rest of the world cared much about Hitler's policy towards the Jews that odious event opened many eyes. I don't know what steps other countries took but the US recalled it's ambassador to Germany because of Krystallnicht. One thing to consider is that Hitler would only have attempted to rid the Reich of it's Jews. A terrible thing but not the catastrophic event of The Holocaust.
    "Now there is one outstandingly important fact regarding Spaceship Earth, and that is that no instruction book came with it." Buckminster Fuller

    http://harveylevy.blogspot.com/

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    • #17
      [QUOTE=Tuor;1302166]
      Originally posted by Elle
      Even if Hitler behave himself with the Munich agreement & never invadied any other countries,Hitler would have still destroyed the jewish race.[/QUOTE

      Possibly German jews, although if he needed some sort of western support in opposing Stalin Hitler might have opted more for expulsion, but without occuping Poland and large sections of the U.S.S.R. the chance of carrying out a holocaust would not have arisen.
      Agreed. Should have read your post before I made my previous comments. I should say ' As Tuor points out'.
      "Now there is one outstandingly important fact regarding Spaceship Earth, and that is that no instruction book came with it." Buckminster Fuller

      http://harveylevy.blogspot.com/

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      • #18
        [QUOTE=ELLE;1302171]
        Originally posted by Tuor View Post

        This might have been the reason why Hitler turn his back on the Munich argreement?
        It's possible. But I think Hitler did not yet formulate the formula for the complete destruction of the Jews until the Wannsee Conference in January 1942.
        "Now there is one outstandingly important fact regarding Spaceship Earth, and that is that no instruction book came with it." Buckminster Fuller

        http://harveylevy.blogspot.com/

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ELLE View Post
          Hitler would have been more of a hero in the furture for the german people,not so sure in being the greatest german ever lived,can't ever see Hitler being a Winton Churchill.
          Even if Hitler behave himself with the Munich agreement & never invadied any other countries,Hitler would have still destroyed the jewish race.
          Im not sure he would have been able to get away with it. With peace in Europe the movement of people and information would have been much easier rather than a Europe especially Germany cut off by the war. Roundings up and gas chamber wouldnt have stayed secret for long.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by FM Harvey View Post
            I see. So you think that financial instability would have forced Hitler to cut back in public expenditures. Well, what effect would this have had in the political sphere? I mean, Hitler would have regained most of the lost territories and have added Austria to the Reich without firing a shot. So the Germans would have had to tighten their belts. Is not as if they were on the Gold standard so other economic measures could have been employed to bolster a sagging economy. And it's not as if Germany had nothing to offer to trade. Germany was one of the leading industrial countries -pharmaceuticals and heavy industry come to mind - and with political stability, and let's face it political stability is gold to investors, the country would have attracted foreign investment like Ford, IBM, and other industrial giants had already done. Although you raise a good and reasonable issue I am not convinced it would have detracted from the political accomplishments.
            Harvey; no disrespect intended here but...

            To attempt to wade into such a debate without a solid background in the concepts of Economics is a precarious exercise...

            Here's a link to a very good debate on the subject; it features some of the more notable (i.e. credible) posters at the Axis History Forum. Throughout the thread you will find numerous citations of works (which should be considered as mandatory reading) on the subject period.

            Understanding the economic constraints (which bound Hitler to the path ultimately taken) requires a serious understanding of the fundamental principles of finance. Deficit spending (to fund the unprecidented rate of rearmament) had backed Herr Hitler into a corner by 1938. Schacht had been waving the "red flag" (about the coming ramifications of this policy) for a number of years and had recently stepped down from his offices in abject frustration (1937). The German economy was inextricably tied to rearmament by this point (~70+%); you can't just pull the government financing from such a situation (i.e. Germany has to "tighten its belt", as you suggest).

            The entire house of cards will collapse. This is basic, "Economics 101" stuff...

            At this point, the Reich was spending massive capital on physical plant (Hermann Goering Werke, Z-Plan (shipyard expansion), IG Farben (synthetics), Krupp et al (steel), Junkers Dessau; some of the more notable examples), all of this tied to the quest for rearmament/autonomy.

            Your statement that you "Feel the Nazis (i.e. Hitler) had accrued sufficient "Political Capital" to survive" betrays a major weakness (I'm being nice here ) in your understanding of exactly how far "up the creek" Hitler & co. really were by this point...

            If you're going to read one book on the subject, make it The Wages of Destruction by Adam Tooze. RJ (Richard) Overy's work The Nazi Economic Recovery 1932-38 is also replete with supporting examples, illustrating the nature of the "mess" I'm talking about here.

            Cheers, Ron
            48 trips 'round the sun on this sh*tball we call home...and still learning...
            __________________________________________________ __________________

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            • #21
              Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
              Im not sure he would have been able to get away with it. With peace in Europe the movement of people and information would have been much easier rather than a Europe especially Germany cut off by the war. Roundings up and gas chamber wouldnt have stayed secret for long.
              They were not much of a secret, even then. Unfortunatly folks were either numb from the many genocidal events or mass attrocities of the previous 24 years, did not want to believe such things, or in the hard cases thought the nazi's Jewish 'clean up' a good thing.

              Repeated Armenian massacres, the expusion of Greeks from Ionia, residual massacres in the Balkans, news of mass starvation in the Urkraine, India, China... the 'Terror' in the US (lynching of Blacks) was just starting to taper off, the winners suppressing the losers after a revolution in Mexico, Japanese atrocities in China, Warlord atrocities in China, excessive mortality rates amoung malnourished & diseased ethnic groups such as the Native Americans on both American continents similar groups in Asia & Africa & &ustralia & Europe. All that placed the treatment of the German Jews as just another bad day for someone. The true implications of what the German treatment of the Jews and Communist leaders, Gypsies, and mental or physical defectives did not sink in amoung the broader public.

              How long the nazis get away with their Clean Up depends on how sucessfull they are at spinning the story and distracting the general public.
              Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 07 Sep 09, 19:34.

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              • #22
                The interesting what if for me is: what if Germans had gone off the gold standard and devalued their currency like the other countries had?

                That seems to be the only way to have a viable German economy in the late 1930s.

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                • #23
                  My take was Germany had started playing fast and loose with the 'gold standard long before the nazis ran things. At least by pre 1914 conventiosn governments were only paying lip service to the gold standard and attempting all sorts of complex finacial arraigments that were to ad 'sophistication' and 'modernize' their finances. Perhaps some expert here could clarify this for us?

                  The risk in publically leaving a gold standard is in unacceptable inflation. Officially the US abandoned the Bretton Woods Agreement (which may have been dead anyway) circa 1970 or 1972 and left the gold standard of post WWII. How many here recall the nasty & long running round of inflation we went though in the 1970s? While there was inflationary pressure from many directions then the wide spread abandonment of the gold standard triggered a level of panic & speculative fever than aggravated things.

                  Perhaps the nazi financiers could have kept a lid on inflation were monetary policy altered in 1939 or 1940, but perhaps they would not.

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