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Alternative to "Final Countdown"

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  • #31
    Originally posted by dabrob View Post
    Why not ? They surely all "got caught with their pants down" in the origianl timeline.
    DoH! i just realized something!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by dabrob View Post
      Why not ? They surely all "got caught with their pants down" in the origianl timeline.

      None of the American commanders that you listed had the advantage of 68 years of hindsight on Dec.6'41 and their President had ordered that American Armed Forces would NOT make the first deadly attack. Although as we all now know thanks to that 2002 minisub discovery off of Oahu, the USS Ward actually did. Under her ASW orders, of course.
      Twice now in two posts you assert that FDR "ordered" that US armed forces not make a first attack. Can you provide the documentation that shows where this order was made? I am aware of a late November warning message recieved by Hawaii that had wording to the effect that it was desired that Japan make the first overt move but have never seen an order from the White House stating that they should not make the first attack.

      Originally posted by dabrob View Post
      I'm NOT suggesting that they would do nothing if an early warning was somehow received but I think it clear that FDR was DEFENSIVELY minded at that time. Surely Oahu's defenses and the US Pacific Fleet would be ordered to deploy defensively, with the expectation of a Japanese attack on Oahu but that is far different from attacking Japanese ships legally at sea somewhere far to the north of Midway. Well OUTSIDE of any American territorial waters.
      Prior to Dec 7th, the US fleet avoided crossing the international date line with their exercises to specifically avoid the appearance that a pre-emptive stirke was could be made. With the political situation on edge as much as it was in the weeks leading up to the Pearl Harbor attack any Japanese task force that far from any of their possesions and that close to Hawaii can only suggest bad intentions on that forces part. Technically they are legally at sea but in the political world you are asking for trouble if you take that course of action.
      Bill

      "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

      Billy Currington

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      • #33
        Originally posted by cst784 View Post
        Twice now in two posts you assert that FDR "ordered" that US armed forces not make a first attack. Can you provide the documentation that shows where this order was made? I am aware of a late November warning message recieved by Hawaii that had wording to the effect that it was desired that Japan make the first overt move but have never seen an order from the White House stating that they should not make the first attack.
        I believe that you refer to the USN war warning message of November 27, 1941 which reads as follows:

        "THIS DISPATCH IS TO BE CONSIDERED A WAR WARNING*. NEGOTIATIONS WITH JAPAN LOOKING TOWARD STABILIZATION OF CONDITIONS IN THE PACIFIC *HAVE CEASED* AND AN AGGRESSIVE MOVE BY JAPAN IS EXPECTED WITHIN THE NEXT FEW DAYS. THE NUMBER AND EQUIPMENT OF JAPANESE TROOPS AND THE ORGANIZATION OF NAVAL TASK FORCES INDICATES AN AMPHIBIOUS EXPEDITION AGAINST EITHER THE PHILIPPINES THAI OR KRA PENINSULA OR POSSIBLY BORNEO . *EXECUTE AN APPROPRIATE DEFENSIVE DEPLOYMENT PREPARATORY TO CARRYING OUT THE TASKS ASSIGNED IN WPL46*. INFORM DISTRICT AND ARMY AUTHORITIES. A SIMILAR WARNING IS BEING SENT BY WAR DEPARTMENT. SPENAVO INFORM BRITISH. CONTINENTAL DISTRICTS GUAM SAMOA DIRECTED TAKE APPROPRIATE MEASURES AGAINST SABOTAGE."
        (from the Report Of the Joint Congressional Committee 1946)

        but this is not the message on which I base my assertion. Please see:

        "On 27 November Secretary Stimson sent for General Gerow, in General Marshall's absence (at the North Carolina maneuvers), and asked him what warnings had been sent to General MacArthur and what it was proposed to send. Reporting in writing to General Marshall, General Gerow explained that he had shown Mr. Stimson a copy of the Stark-Marshall message of three days earlier, but that this apparently did not wholly satisfy the Secretary. "The President wanted a warning message sent to the Philippines." General Gerow withdrew to prepare such a message in company with Admiral Stark, and later that day conferred with Secretary Stimson, Secretary of the Navy Knox, and the Chief of Naval Operations.33 As a result such a "war warning" as the President apparently wished was sent out by Navy wireless (for exhibition to Army authorities as well). This went, however, only after a much milder report of "hostile action possible at any moment" had been sent over General Marshall's signature to General MacArthur and duplicated, with certain modifications, to Hawaii, the Caribbean, and San Francisco.34 The milder message to General Short contained this passage:


        --507--

        ------------------------------------------------------------------------


        Japanese future action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities cannot be avoided, the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not be construed as restricting you to a course of action that might jeopardize your defense. Prior to hostile Japanese action you are directed to undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not to alarm civil population or disclose intent. Report measures taken. Should hostilities occur you will carry out the tasks assigned in RAINBOW 5. . . .


        which begins in it's proper and confusing context on page 506 at http://ibiblio.net/hyperwar/USA/USA-...-Plans-15.html

        Prior to Dec 7th, the US fleet avoided crossing the international date line with their exercises to specifically avoid the appearance that a pre-emptive stirke was could be made.
        Considering that the US Asiatic Fleet (with something approaching 29 submarines) was based in the Philippines and that USAAF B-17 bomber reinforcements were beginning to arrive there in numbers, I don't think that such was at all clear to the Japanese of that time, even if it was the (somewhat dubious) American intent. FDR's entire admitted purpose in moving the Pacific Fleet's permanent base from San Diego to Pearl Harbor was a deliberate attempt to intimidate the Japanese militarily.

        With the political situation on edge as much as it was in the weeks leading up to the Pearl Harbor attack any Japanese task force that far from any of their possesions and that close to Hawaii can only suggest bad intentions on that forces part.
        No doubt but FDR had already indicated that his country was not yet fully prepared for war and that he didn't want one started by his own people, just yet.

        Technically they are legally at sea but in the political world you are asking for trouble if you take that course of action.
        Which is exactly why the Japanese took so much trouble to sail a route to Oahu across the wintertime northern Pacific which avoided all known merchant shipping routes and why they used rain squalls/storms/night to hide themselves further, as they approached that sleeping peacetime island.

        The Japanese even went so far as to ask for and receive Washington's permission for a Dec.9'41 port visit to Honolulu by their biggest cargo-liner, the Tatuta Maru, on a (fake) citizen repatritaion voyage between Yokahama and San Francisco. Anything to suggest a situation of calm peacetime normalicy, prior to their air attacks.

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        • #34
          Alternative to "The Final Countown."

          In my senario, The BlackHawks fly from the phillippines - (Haaawwwwwkkkaaaaaaa!!!!) to attack the Japanese mainland, helped by Captain America & Bucky.....
          Then, FDR enlists the aid of Captain Marvel to fly to Germany and capture Hitler and his goose-stepping gang.
          While this is going on, Glenn Miller and his orchestra entertain the Justice Society of America at their HQ.
          American participation in World War Two lasts less then a week. Order is restored to Europe and Asia, and once again America reigns supreme!!!!!!!

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