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Final Count Down, the movie

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  • #76
    Good point about helos, you are correct, likely a technology that's easily adapted. Do we see USN helos by mid '42?

    Be careful with the thought processes on which types of ships can embark a helo. On smaller ships (modern destroyers/ frigates) large helicopters don't so much land as are winched down to the deck. There are also a host of other problems related to supporting helicopters from 'small' platforms (modern frigates and destroyers are generally the size of WWII era light cruisers).

    http://www.readyayeready.com/timelin...trap/index.htm



    With that said, if you can mount WWII era sonar/asdic in a retractable device (ball) and get the helicopters to sea on some sort of small carrier you've solved the u-boat crisis.
    Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

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    • #77
      I think it's entirely possible within this scenario that we would've seen helos on USN ships by 1942. We would have Igor Sikorsky to thank for this. Sikorsky had already flown the first practical helicopter in 1940. His R4 helicopter was the first to be mass produced in 1942. Just show Igor Sikorsky the Nimitz' S61 Seakings and let him do the rest.
      Hitler played Golf. His bunker shot was a hole in one.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Roadkiller View Post
        .........

        With that said, if you can mount WWII era sonar/asdic in a retractable device (ball) and get the helicopters to sea on some sort of small carrier you've solved the u-boat crisis.
        Single engine aircraft flying off the jeep carriers did a lot to solve the sub problem. unfortunatly despite a high priority the small carriers were not operational until 1943. Multi engine long range aircraft were effective as well, and 'available' in 1942. Unfortunatly Air Marshall Harris adamantly opposed diverting any from his bombing campaign and US Admiral King avoided allowing any he controled to be used over the North Atlantic until 1943.

        From these examples and a dozen others we might guess that there will be a giant cat fight amoung the service chiefs and their subordinates over who gets to use what from the Nimitz.

        Also a technical point. 1941 - 1942 is long before the service contracts of the crew of the Nimitz are valid. And, the ship is not yet commissioned in the USN or the components yet purchased or otherwise owned by the US government. So, what legal hoops must be jumped through to place the Nimitz & weapons under who's control?

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
          ... Also a technical point. 1941 - 1942 is long before the service contracts of the crew of the Nimitz are valid. And, the ship is not yet commissioned in the USN or the components yet purchased or otherwise owned by the US government. So, what legal hoops must be jumped through to place the Nimitz & weapons under who's control?
          I don't know about the USN, but the service contracts I signed had end dates. Falling through a time warp just puts those dates a lot farther in the future

          Don't US service personnel take an oath to defend the constitution? Or words to that effect anyway.

          So I think their terms of service and oaths would still be binding.


          As for control of the ship, you may have just invented a whole new branch of law ... temporal displacement litigation.
          Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Roadkiller View Post
            I don't know about the USN, but the service contracts I signed had end dates. Falling through a time warp just puts those dates a lot farther in the future

            Don't US service personnel take an oath to defend the constitution? Or words to that effect anyway.

            So I think their terms of service and oaths would still be binding.
            Ya but contracts are not binding before the starting date, or 'effective date, or date of signature.


            Originally posted by Roadkiller View Post
            As for control of the ship, you may have just invented a whole new branch of law ... temporal displacement litigation.
            I think I read that science fiction story...

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            • #81
              Butt in the movie Kirk Douglas makes it quite clear (I believe without any dissent by observer Martin Sheen) that he feels bound to obey FDr and the American military. And he clearly is deferential to the senator.

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              • #82
                Basically, the entire Japanese force would have been sunk or crippled and left for sunk in one air strike.
                The S-3 and A-6's would have, between them, put enough Harpoon and GBU's of various sorts on target to finish every Japanese ship in the group. The A-6 could have easily rolled in from 35 or 40,000 feet completely undetected as could the A-7's. The Japanese would have never seen them coming.
                A 2000 lb GBU hitting a Kongo class between the turrets and detonating in the magazines would have finished it. One amidships would have crippled it.
                The same goes for the carriers. They would have been burning wrecks with just a couple of hits.
                One 1000 lb bomb hit using a laser guided weapon would finish a destroyer.
                Anything still afloat after the first strike could be dealt with using dumb munitions from A-7 strike aircraft.

                The F-14's could have simply gone sonic through the Japanese CAP allowing their Zeros to get caught in the sonic wake and torn to pieces.

                Of course, the US could simply have planted a nuclear bomb in the middle of the formation and just oblitherated the whole thing in one stroke. That would probably have brought the war to a very quick end.

                It would have been a very short one-sided battle.

                In the aftermath the Nimitz could have swept the seas for hundreds of miles around it being almost invulnerable to attack. Submarines of the period are of minimal threat when the carrier can maintain in excess of 20 knots easily and continiously. The S-3 and H-3's aboard have ASW equipment more than capable of detecting a WW 2 era noisy sub and sinking it. The only danger would be running out of sonobouys but even then, they could in the long run have the late WW 2 equivalent manufactured for use with their systems.

                Missiles would be a problem as would other solid state electronic equipment being replaced. But, the air wing should be able to maintain some level of operational ability well after 6 months of operations. Even then vintage aircraft could operate from the carrier.

                Manufacture of bombs and many of the more low tech components like the high drag pop open tail assemblies could easily have been manufactured.

                Just the general level of knowledge of the crew in many areas of technology would have produced a technological revolution on its own. For example: The Marine Detachment hands over M 16 and M 203 weapons for copying. These could be manufactured with extant technology.
                The technology that allows for superior packaging of all sorts of things could also have been copied. Something like the MRE is very possible. That too would have been a huge boon. The same goes for medicine.

                Even ship design would take a leap. Firefighting equipment and damage control would be improved. Introducing MiG welding would greatly increase production rates and is very doable.
                A carrier represents a huge number of technologies and orgainzational structures that would become available for use. It would have been an overwhelming advantage for a number of years to come.
                Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 07 Sep 09, 22:11.

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                • #83
                  Can you possibly imagine how much farther we would be advanced today, if today's military technology could have been given to the US Navy and armed forces of nearly 70 years ago?
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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