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Final Count Down, the movie

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  • Final Count Down, the movie

    In the film the USS Nimitz is transported back to 6 Dec 41. They don't attack the Japanese Fleet.

    Should they have attacked? What would have been the negative/positive of them interfering, rewriting history?

    I only see positives.

    Watching the film as I type.

    HP
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

  • #2
    Aside from the space/time continum ?

    Seriously though, us having that advanced technology in that era could have done one of two things:

    1. Ended WWII a lot earlier - put the Cold War into a different direction

    or

    2. Could have caused a faster build up of technology by USSR to combat our "new" navy ship/fighters - which might have led to a whole different set of problems
    "War is sorrowful, but there is one thing infinitely more horrible than the worst horrors of war, and that is the feeling that nothing is worth fighting for..."
    -- Harper's Weekly, December 31, 1864

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    • #3
      In either case after the surviving destroyers & auxillarys make it back to home base folks are going to have a tough time with their tales of American rocket planes making precision attacks with 1000 Kg bombs at 900 Kph.

      So you are the US air boss on the carrier. Whats your options for ordinance (remember the year of the movie) and how do you & your staff plan the strike and aircraft weapon loads?

      I am rather curious now what ordinance there would have been & its effect on the several battleships & armored cruisers accompaning the Japanese TF.

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      • #4
        Haven't seen the film in awhile, but was it just the Nimitz that time-travelled or her entire carrier battle group?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 88L71 View Post
          Haven't seen the film in awhile, but was it just the Nimitz that time-travelled or her entire carrier battle group?
          Just the Nimitz and her air group.
          Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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          • #6
            Ahh, too bad...that would alter my hypothetical tactics somewhat I guess.

            Now a Los Angeles class attack sub in that scenario would be *verrrry* interesting.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
              In either case after the surviving destroyers & auxillarys make it back to home base folks are going to have a tough time with their tales of American rocket planes making precision attacks with 1000 Kg bombs at 900 Kph.
              Heads would roll.

              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg
              So you are the US air boss on the carrier. Whats your options for ordinance (remember the year of the movie) and how do you & your staff plan the strike and aircraft weapon loads?
              Harpoon anti-ship missiles, 500 lb and 1,000 lb iron bombs, Rockeye CBU's, 1970's vintage LGB's and other early PGM's, Sidewinder, Sparrow and Phoenix AAM's, 20 mm cannon... Peacetime training load? Maybe enough for a couple of alpha strikes. Jet fuel and AvGas for about two weeks of continuous air op's.

              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg
              I am rather curious now what ordinance there would have been & its effect on the several battleships & armored cruisers accompaning the Japanese TF.
              Good question... Taking out the carriers would be easy. Nagumo had BB's Hiei and Kirishima in his task force. They were really more battle cruisers rather than true battleships. It took dozens of bombs and torpedoes to sink Yamato & Musashi. I'm not sure how effective 1980 anti-ship ordinance would have been against 1940's battleships. I suppose Nimitz's S-3's could have attacked with MK46 torpedoes.

              Nimitz's airgroup could have been adapted to carry 1940's bombs... If the existing 1941-vintage 20mm ammo was incompatible; it seems that 20mm rounds for the M61 Vulcan cannon could have been manufactured in the 1940's.

              Missiles and spare parts would have been an issue.
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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              • #8
                As far as the BB's go...USS Nimitz destroys or disables carriers, sinks escorts as it can, damages battleships as much as possible before she runs out of ordinance.

                Remainder is destroyed by 1941 US Navy, which would still be intact, either by surface combat TF's or carriers.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by The Doctor View Post

                  Nimitz's airgroup could have been adapted to carry 1940's bombs... If the existing 1941-vintage 20mm ammo was incompatible; it seems that 20mm rounds for the M61 Vulcan cannon could have been manufactured in the 1940's.

                  Missiles and spare parts would have been an issue.
                  "Ok, here are the specs for the 20mm cannon ammo we need, heres a spare engine from the parts room for Pratt & Whitney to take drawing from... they'll need a lot of titanium & other alloys. And, we need to talk to these Doctors Fermi & Oppenheimer about something...

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                  • #10
                    There is a JAanese Anime about a modern AEGIS jmsdf DESTROYER being transported to WWII at the eve of Midway.



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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by The Doctor View Post

                      Good question... Taking out the carriers would be easy. Nagumo had BB's Hiei and Kirishima in his task force. They were really more battle cruisers rather than true battleships. It took dozens of bombs and torpedoes to sink Yamato & Musashi. I'm not sure how effective 1980 anti-ship ordinance would have been against 1940's battleships. I suppose Nimitz's S-3's could have attacked with MK46 torpedoes.
                      1980's ordnance would have worked fine. The reason that it took so many bombs to sink the Japanese battleships was due to aiming. With PGM's you can place each bomb exactly where it could do the most damage. Down the smokestack...no problem. Director tower...no problem...etc, etc.

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                      • #12
                        So then the IJN goes home with out it's carriers, many of the escorts are lost and the remaining BB's are heavily damaged and maybe one or two lost.

                        How does Japan react with most of their navy lost? Comply to the demands to with draw from China? Does the war go on in the Pacific. US fleet is still untouch. Japan would find it's self in a most difficult position.
                        "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                        Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                        you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                          So then the IJN goes home with out it's carriers, many of the escorts are lost and the remaining BB's are heavily damaged and maybe one or two lost.

                          How does Japan react with most of their navy lost? Comply to the demands to with draw from China? Does the war go on in the Pacific. US fleet is still untouch. Japan would find it's self in a most difficult position.
                          Intially the IJN would try to cover up the defeat. That is lie about it. The USN carrier raids on the Marianais in the winter/spring, the strike on the supply convoy to New Guniea late winter were all subject to coverup by the Admirals. The losses at Midway were covered up as long as possible. When the Japanese Army Generals did find out about the Navy defeats they sneered about the Admirals incompetence. Historically the Japanese Army leaders did not see Japan as losing the war untill mid 1944. Until then any defeats were a Navy problem.

                          Initially this would be much the same. The Adimrals would dither over how much to disclose and try to 'spin' the bad news. The Army leaders would first look at this as a poltical opportunity to increase their power a notch. After the 'rocket planes' make another spectacular apperance, perhaps sinking the Japanese invasion fleet of the NEI or saving Battan the reality will start sinking in back in Tokyo.

                          So what was the ASW capability of the Nimitz back then? Operation Drumbeat started in the Eastern US waters in late January 1942.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                            So you are the US air boss on the carrier. Whats your options for ordinance (remember the year of the movie) and how do you & your staff plan the strike and aircraft weapon loads?
                            I aircraft, 1 bomb.

                            Drop a 1 megaton nuc in the middle of the Japanese fleet and call it a day. Nothing would survive to tell about it.
                            Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                              ... So what was the ASW capability of the Nimitz back then? Operation Drumbeat started in the Eastern US waters in late January 1942.
                              Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron 9 (HS-9)

                              "... the squadron joined Carrier Air Wing EIGHT CVW-8 and in August 1977 deployed to the Mediterranean aboard USS Nimitz (CVN-68). During workups for the next cruise, the filming of the movie Final Countdown aboard USS Nimitz gained HS-9 its debut on the silver screen ..."

                              "... The modern-day Sea Griffins' second Mediterranean deployment was interrupted in January 1980 when the Nimitz/CVW-8 team was dispatched to the Indian Ocean in response to the Iranian crisis. While on "Gonzo Station:' HS-9 continued to fly its diverse missions in support of the battle group as Nimitz set a new record for consecutive days at sea. The 1981-82 Mediterranean cruise saw the Sea Griffins expand their already long tradition of ASW readiness. The squadron pioneered the "Flex-Deck" concept, introduced its close-in ASW defense techniques to the nuclear cruisers USS Texas (CGN-39) and USS Mississippi (CGN-40), shattered the submarine contact time record for current frontline HS Squadrons and became the first HS squadron ever to win the coveted Sixth Fleet "Hook-em" award for ASW excellence..."

                              Sounds like it was pretty good

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HS-9

                              Oh, and if one wants to be a complete stickler for detail, the NIMITZ was actually part of the Atlantic fleet at the time the movie was filmed. The scene at the end with the NIMITZ passing the Arizona memorial, was another carrier.
                              Last edited by Roadkiller; 15 Aug 09, 20:03.
                              Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

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