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Germany goes Red in 1919

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  • Germany goes Red in 1919

    Germany turns Communist in 1919. Any short or long-term implications?

    In the short term maybe helping out the Soviet Union in its war with Poland and the Hungarian communists in their attack on Romania.

    Or if Germany and the Soviet Union were too worn out for that effort, maybe in the long term by forging a close partnership that would eliminate the 1941 attack.

  • #2
    THAT is an interesting question!

    This is something that very nearly DID happen! There was a great deal of popular agitation by the Reds in Germany after the first world war and they were making good headway. If they'd managed to take power (legally or otherwise) I think it would have been a HUGE turning point in post-WWI history. There was no real impetus for war in Germany without Hitler. They were as wrung out as the rest of the continent. With Germany as a stepping-stone, I can easily see much of Europe falling under one Red stripe or another.

    But then what? No WWII certainly, but not necessarily any less suffering of the common people. Wherever communism spread, famine was not far behind. If this home-grown version of communism developed differently in the different countries (like Soviet vs Sino-style) you could have had varying degrees and varieties of communist control in neighboring countries. Would they have proceeded to consume one-another like spiderlings until the survivors became too large to attack?

    Inevitably, there would be backlash in at least some countries resulting in more democratic replacement governments. That's a lot of upheaval and conflict to maintain. We COULD wind up with a pan-european war anyway. However, I don't see it spreading to the rest of the world. Japan would never ally with a communist country and Italy is a nation that most certainly WOULD have fallen to the communists, so no axis powers.

    On the other hand, Japanese expansionism was bound to result in armed conflict that would have included most European nations, so the potential for worldwide conflict is not completely eliminated.

    Meanwhile, a pathetic little war-vet and failed impressionist painter dies in obscurity in Bavaria of a drug overdose.

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    • #3
      Russia was a backwater, but Reds in Germany would have to contend with Civil War, and at least France COULD NOT afford a Red Germany on it's border. Britian and France would intervene ANY waypossible to crush the Red Kraut, as Germany was not like Russia. Russia at least theoretically, could be ignored. Germany commanded so much of the world's economic engine it would have destabilized the whole continent.

      This would have meant the French and British would supply the Freikorps. More probably, the 100 day offensive would have continued to Berlin, this time in the guise of being defenders against the Godless Reds. I would think there would be efforts to organize anti-Communists elsewhere, including Russia, but certainly in Hungary. I would hope Japan would be galvanized to aide Kolchak in Serbia and puppet his faction to slice Siberia off of Soviet Russia.

      In short: HUGE anti-communist commitment. Russia could only end worse off and Germany would suffer more, but would come out White.
      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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      • #4
        So you believe France was free from that infection? What do you think about the mutiny of French Navy men which were sent against soviets?
        Last edited by Rambow; 23 Jul 09, 23:39.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Wolery View Post
          Russia was a backwater, but Reds in Germany would have to contend with Civil War, and at least France COULD NOT afford a Red Germany on it's border. Britian and France would intervene ANY waypossible to crush the Red Kraut, as Germany was not like Russia. Russia at least theoretically, could be ignored. Germany commanded so much of the world's economic engine it would have destabilized the whole continent.

          This would have meant the French and British would supply the Freikorps. More probably, the 100 day offensive would have continued to Berlin, this time in the guise of being defenders against the Godless Reds. I would think there would be efforts to organize anti-Communists elsewhere, including Russia, but certainly in Hungary. I would hope Japan would be galvanized to aide Kolchak in Serbia and puppet his faction to slice Siberia off of Soviet Russia.

          In short: HUGE anti-communist commitment. Russia could only end worse off and Germany would suffer more, but would come out White.
          Briton and France had trouble crushing German troops before,so can't see Briton even trying to do anything!
          That's the reason why Russia was never attack in the first place,Briton could not defeat both russia and germany! So with Russia and germany as 100% allies,I would think Briton would never declare war on the axis to save briton herself! This would cause chain reaction to the Aliies defeat!

          What do you mean by"would come out white?"

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          • #6
            So i am thinking about this 2nd WW2. Theres the red USSR Germany Italy (and french communist sympathising rebels???) and there would be Britain, France, Hungary, German Rebels, and ?Finland?Poland? I can also see the Japanese allying as said above by taking serbia.
            US would most likely remain neutral (due to Congress like WW2 but withought the Japanese timebomb)

            2 Timelines im coming up with.

            1. Communist Germany controlls the state with help of USSR (supplies transported through the baltic. not troops as may set of France and Britain) they Carve up Poland to connect land routes with eachother, (like WW2 France and Britain declare war) Withought the famous Blitzkreigh France Takeover is extremly slower taking heavey casualties. With negotiations Expanstionist Japan has her efforts put into invading Serbia instead of Allied Colonys. Trust with Japan is simmilar to that as the allies relation with Stalin a unfriendly but necisary partnership.(not familliar of Hungary circumstance or Finish War)

            2. Communist Germany attempts to take over, France Britain and Poland intervene and invade Germany. USSR wanting to help 'Free' Germany attacks to help Germany. Invasion of and over Poland is needed. USSR takes Poland but in a longer period of time giving time for Britain and France to supress the Reds and repel any sea invasion of the Baltic Sea.

            option 2 is the best choice but the answer is still unkown as the Red Army or Red Germans may be to powerful for a swift victory making a large scale war (unpredictable)
            God didnít create evil. Evil is the result of when man does not have God's love in his heart.It's the cold when there is no heat.The darkness that comes when there is no light

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            • #7
              Japan taking Serbia?Or Yugoslavia by that time?
              Does anybody of you knows that Serbia is country in south Eastern Europe?
              It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge.

              Косово је Србија!
              Never go to war with a country whose national holiday celebrates a defeat in 1389.

              Armored Brigade

              Armored Brigade Facebook page

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              • #8
                Originally posted by nikolas93TS View Post
                Japan taking Serbia?Or Yugoslavia by that time?
                Does anybody of you knows that Serbia is country in south Eastern Europe?
                Ignoring the logistics of Japan invading Serbia WHY would they want Serbia? Its a foul country filled full of murderous factions who slaughter their neighbours every decade or so when they're not block voting on Eurovision.

                He doesn't mean SIBERIA does he? That makes a bit more sense..... although only a bit more sense. Lots of trees and snow there in 1919. Most of the natural resources we know are there were undiscovered until quite recently and you need the transiberian railway to open the place up. Japan had her hands full with China.

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                • #9
                  I think the allies were overstretched and not eager to go to war again. Germany was not yet fully disarmed. Trouble was brewing in Turkey and the Middle East. Possibly India too. Since Germany and the Soviets were not in better conditions the two sides would probably try to find a settlement and focus on rebuilding their capabilities for a future contest.

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                  • #10
                    France sent troops in over Reparations payments, I doubt they would have held back over something this important.

                    Could a pre-Hitler Nazi Party have come to power in 1921, with French backing?
                    "Why is the Rum gone?"

                    -Captain Jack

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                    • #11
                      Wars don't always happen because someone wants it. Many times they happen because they NEED to happen, some dynamic is so out of place people have to die to set it right.

                      France's communists are VERY important. THat's the chief reason they have to invade, not to mention France cannot take on any kind of Germany on their lonesome and need British help while they still have it on the table.

                      Japan slicing off Siberia makes a LOT of sense. Even then most people understood great welath might be their for the taking, maybe oil even, who knows? More to the point, If the Whites push the Reds back any distance from Vladivolstok, it means a friendly puppet AND security knowing that for the center of Russian power (European Russia) must go through Kolckak's people first. That the Japs didn't do that historically but I suspect they were afraid of Western meddling.

                      EDIT: Heidi, by WHite I meant some kind of non-communist regime would rule Germany. I would hope something democratic but any regime short of Hitler's would suffice.
                      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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                      • #12
                        whole of germany going red is unlikely, if that does happen in bavaria or some other parts of germany most likely situation will be a civil war in germany and division of the old germany.
                        With brit/fran backing their old enemy the right wing and imperislists against communits.
                        Last edited by nastle; 24 Jul 09, 17:55.

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                        • #13
                          Yes Sorry about the spelling error of siberia and serbia. (been in WW1 mode for a lil too long ) Expansionist Japan wants land and natural reasources, and may be treading on shallow waters with the rest of germany. Siberia has both of what they want, and something the allies want (a meat grinder).

                          if that does happen in bavaria or some other parts of germany most likely situation will be a civil war in germany and division of the old germany
                          exactlly my thought. there would be 2 majour identities the White (using Wolery's naming for non-communism) and the Reds, If the Reds are dominant i expect the Whites to do a French Resistance type system to disrupt the Reds, trying to get help from the other whites (see scenario above)

                          Thought - With an alliance with the British and other allied nations would the Japanese be able to negotiate and get better systems for manufactoring, small arms etc.... Stalin managed to get some advanced Jet Power fromt he British in their alliance. (over a game of pool(billiards) i believe the story was).
                          God didnít create evil. Evil is the result of when man does not have God's love in his heart.It's the cold when there is no heat.The darkness that comes when there is no light

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