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If the Crusades Began Again, Which Arab Army/Hamas Irregulars Would the Israelis like

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  • #16
    Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
    Point # 1: Which Eastern European countries fill the oldtimers' hearts with hatred? Isn't it a love-hate relationship with Russia, for instance? Foreign Minister Avigador Liebermann's meeting with Putin was extra cordial after Israel's cooling with Obama, right?
    Mostly Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and such.
    My mom's parents hated the Poles until the day they died.
    My father's parents, actually had fund memories of Chckoslovakia and it's people....

    We're talking non-official feelings, so there's no point of talking politics.
    Point # 2: Well, you wrote that the Palmach were the "puppies of the British", it seemed a little dismissive as choice of words...your historical sympathies lie less with Palmach and more with the Etzel here, no?
    True.
    But none-the-less, what I wrote is still the reality, even though I might made it sound dismissive....
    Or do you leave politics completely aside when it comes to combat?
    Of course, I always do, but now we're talking in a hind-sight, so there's no problem involving politics, especially in times when politics necessarily dictated what combat was like.

    Which brings me to a question: Arthur Koestler wrote that Irgun and Lehi mostly were led by Polish Jews such as Begin and Shamir but had a Palestinian Sephardic following (from Ottoman times)--was that true? Was it easier for these sepharades to blend in and conduct operations against Arab targets?
    For the first question-
    The stigma is that the 'right' (Etzel and Lehi) is made out mostly by non-educated, dirty Spharadim/Mizrahim and the left (Hagana) is made out of the elite, educated Ashkenazim.
    And for that I say-
    History is written by the winners.

    For the second question-
    Yes, but the Palmach also employed them in the same manner-
    There was a unit named "the Arab platoon" that was made out of only Arabic speaking Mizrahim and were blended into the Arab population to acquire Intel.

    It's true that in the popular media like the Hollywood movie "Exodus" its seen the Haganah as spotless Socialist heros sunkissed from the kibbutz forward into combat as noble Hebrew warriors (Paul Newman)--while the "Stern Gang" and Irgun as murdering confused anti-British terrorists. Others mention of course Dir Yassin (exaggerated, I believe), Arlosoroff assasination, the Altalena debacle, Abraham Stern's written offer to the approaching nazis, Lord Moyne of the Guinness family and Count Folke Bernadotte, upstanding enlightened aristocrats gunned down by uncontrollables, et caetera et caetera.

    This is the prevailing picture that is painted again and again without any attempt to find out more about who these men and women of the right-wing of the Underground were.

    Have you met any veterans of Irgun or Lehi and heard their stories? (or Palmah in British service for that matter!) What was life like under the British for the Yeshuv? Why did they anger both the Muslim Arabs and Yeshuv at the same time? Was it their flegmatic standoff attitude? Their supercilliousness? Stiff upper lip, and priority given to keeping up appearances above all? (I've read that the English favoured the Christian Arabs and were worried about them losing influence/property, etc.)

    Too many questions! Enjoy your week, man,

    Laurent
    Wow man, that is a lot of questions....

    Pick one and will focus on it, I have no way of answring it all

    Have a great weekend man!

    Comment


    • #17
      Okay, you're right--one question: have you ever spoken to any old Etzel [or Haganah] veterans and heard their pre-'48 stories?





      Originally posted by Golani View Post
      Mostly Poland, Ukraine, Belarus and such.
      My mom's parents hated the Poles until the day they died.
      My father's parents, actually had fund memories of Chckoslovakia and it's people....

      We're talking non-official feelings, so there's no point of talking politics.

      True.
      But none-the-less, what I wrote is still the reality, even though I might made it sound dismissive....

      Of course, I always do, but now we're talking in a hind-sight, so there's no problem involving politics, especially in times when politics necessarily dictated what combat was like.


      For the first question-
      The stigma is that the 'right' (Etzel and Lehi) is made out mostly by non-educated, dirty Spharadim/Mizrahim and the left (Hagana) is made out of the elite, educated Ashkenazim.
      And for that I say-
      History is written by the winners.

      For the second question-
      Yes, but the Palmach also employed them in the same manner-
      There was a unit named "the Arab platoon" that was made out of only Arabic speaking Mizrahim and were blended into the Arab population to acquire Intel.


      Wow man, that is a lot of questions....

      Pick one and will focus on it, I have no way of answring it all

      Have a great weekend man!

      Comment


      • #18
        Yes,
        Many times...

        Is that it? I was hoping for more....

        Comment


        • #19
          I have to say that I'm impressed, Golani--you're only 21? You're very different than most Israelis your age. Come to think of it, you're not like many dudes in the Western world in their early twenties.

          Man, when I was your age, I was backpacking, smoking some doobie, drinking beers, involved in deejaying independent radio shows, going out with this righteous leftist chick and not really caring about politics--so military matters were the FURTHEST from my mind! It was only after when my grandfather died five years ago did I start to re-examine that history.

          Anycase, I'm to tired to ask questions. I mean, what? I'm not going to ask you if you querried some of the old Etzelnim on who killed Arlosoroff or Count Bernadotte.



          Originally posted by Golani View Post
          Yes,
          Many times...

          Is that it? I was hoping for more....

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
            I have to say that I'm impressed, Golani--you're only 21? You're very different than most Israelis your age. Come to think of it, you're not like many dudes in the Western world in their early twenties.
            Ahem, 22, ahem

            Man, when I was your age, I was backpacking, smoking some doobie, drinking beers, involved in deejaying independent radio shows, going out with this righteous leftist chick and not really caring about politics--so military matters were the FURTHEST from my mind! It was only after when my grandfather died five years ago did I start to re-examine that history.
            Hey,
            I did plenty of backpacking during the last 4 years, 40 kg of gear and weapons cross-country and outside the borders, I do my smoking in the form of cigarettes and there are few things I enjoy more then a cold beer or warm whiskey.
            I have a girlfriend that I love and good friends (non the less, I try to stay away from leftist )

            With all that in mind, I am an officer and went to a military high school, I love military things (although I sometimes like the military itself a little less) and history, military history, politics and such, all those interests don't collide with what I said before.

            Anycase, I'm to tired to ask questions. I mean, what? I'm not going to ask you if you querried some of the old Etzelnim on who killed Arlosoroff or Count Bernadotte.
            Firstly, I resent that Etzel killed Arlozerov.

            I could "justify" killing Lord DeMoin, for example, who actively acted against Jews.

            A classic example is from the WWII early days, when the Jews of Israel wanted to volunteer to the British army, he said:
            "Sure, let the Jews join our army and let the Germans do our work for us"

            How is that man, who was the high commissioner and in charge of the Jewish population in Israel, could hold this position while saying things like that?
            Last edited by Golani; 28 Jul 09, 15:15.

            Comment


            • #21
              L'Avocat du Diable

              Moyne? That's a difficult question, Golani. But I'll try to answer it.

              Lord/Baron Moyne was far from the only Anglo Saxon who was antisemitic. Sadly, in Britain as in the British Commonwealth around the world and also in the USA, anti-[Eastern European] Jewish feeling was at it's highest level ever, especially during the Great economic Depression of the "Dirty 'Thirties". It lessened somewhat during WWII (except of course most tragically in Europe); but grew in the late 1940s/early 1950s again.

              Also, Baron Moyne, Arthur Edward Guinness of the brewing family, was extremely popular at that time in the Anglo-Saxon world and his killing was a shock not only with the British Establishment but with the Anglo Saxon public as well (and not just the Guinness beer drinkers)--bonhommie, widely travelled adventurer-aristocrat, incredibly rich of course, highly decorated war hero of the Boer and WW1, gave widely to charities, commissioned the longest bridge in the British empire,and was close friends with PM Churchill as well as with assimilated Jews such as Lord Rothschild and Siegfried Sasoon (who he knew in WW1 officer cavalry circles).

              According to wikipedia, Moyne was among the rare British statesmen who was for the Partition plan and the Jewish home. Many pro-Zionist Establishment men were ironically both privately (and sometimes not so privately) antisemitic and Zionist in a Christian Biblical sense at that time (or maybe not so ironical, think about it....)

              So his killing in late 1944 (during the time Brits were fighting the Germans into Holland and later in Germany) was met with incredulity. Even the King David and other bombings later, "Anglos" couldn't understand why and were finding the Jews ungrateful, unsympathetic, and as uncontrollable as the Arabs.

              The Lehi assasination of Bernadotte plus Colonel Serot was later: late 1948 and in Early Israel, Tel Aviv, not wartime Cairo. Count Bernadotte was also an aristocrat but Swedish, and he was the very first UN negotiator. That was also, arguably a booboo, Golani.

              As for Mapai leader Arlosoroff that was a lot earlier, 1933. Is it still a hot potato? So you don't believe Stavsky killed Arlosoroff?

              On television, I remember seeing Leah Rabin saying it was "karma" that Stavsky (not to be confused with the French StavIsky) was killed in the shelling of the Altalena.

              You don't have ANY leftist friends?! No intellectuals? Artists? Dancers? Debaters? Coffee and cakes with nice Labour girls in book-filled Ramat Gan/Caesaria spacious apartments?

              Think Golani! As an officer you could be well connected with this elite, and end up...GENERAL Golani (when you are my age)! Dinner with King Jordan, Rabin's attractive granddaughter, Obama's daughters, big office with classy, fashionable university-educated secretaries?

              Aren't these Labour girls classier, more eduated, with more poise, and not as loud than those Betar and/or settler girls, no?!

              Ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! (satanic laughter)

              signed,

              L'avocat du diable ("Devil's Advocate" in French)


              Originally posted by Golani View Post
              Ahem, 22, ahem


              Hey,
              I did plenty of backpacking during the last 4 years, 40 kg of gear and weapons cross-country and outside the borders, I do my smoking in the form of cigarettes and there are few things I enjoy more then a cold beer or warm whiskey.
              I have a girlfriend that I love and good friends (non the less, I try to stay away from leftist )

              With all that in mind, I am an officer and went to a military high school, I love military things (although I sometimes like the military itself a little less) and history, military history, politics and such, all those interests don't collide with what I said before.


              Firstly, I resent that Etzel killed Arlozerov.

              I could "justify" killing Lord DeMoin, for example, who actively acted against Jews.

              A classic example is from the WWII early days, when the Jews of Israel wanted to volunteer to the British army, he said:
              "Sure, let the Jews join our army and let the Germans do our work for us"

              How is that man, who was the high commissioner and in charge of the Jewish population in Israel, could hold this position while saying things like that?
              Last edited by olivenstein; 29 Jul 09, 06:26.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
                Lord/Baron Moyne was far from the only Anglo Saxon who was antisemitic. Sadly, in Britain as in the British Commonwealth around the world and also in the USA, anti-[Eastern European] Jewish feeling was at it's highest level ever, especially during the Great economic Depression of the "Dirty 'Thirties". It lessened somewhat during WWII (except of course most tragically in Europe); but grew in the late 1940s/early 1950s again.
                Sadly, I know....
                That was just an example though.

                Also, Baron Moyne, Arthur Edward Guinness of the brewing family, was extremely popular at that time in the Anglo-Saxon world and his killing was a shock not only with the British Establishment but with the Anglo Saxon public as well (and not just the Guinness beer drinkers)--bonhommie, widely travelled adventurer-aristocrat, incredibly rich of course, highly decorated war hero of the Boer and WW1, gave widely to charities, commissioned the longest bridge in the British empire,and was close friends with PM Churchill as well as with assimilated Jews such as Lord Rothschild and Siegfried Sasoon (who he knew in WW1 officer cavalry circles).

                According to wikipedia, Moyne was among the rare British statesmen who was for the Partition plan and the Jewish home. Many pro-Zionist Establishment men were ironically both privately (and sometimes not so privately) antisemitic and Zionist in a Christian Biblical sense at that time (or maybe not so ironical, think about it....)

                So his killing in late 1944 (during the time Brits were fighting the Germans into Holland and later in Germany) was met with incredulity. Even the King David and other bombings later, "Anglos" couldn't understand why and were finding the Jews ungrateful, unsympathetic, and as uncontrollable as the Arabs.

                The Lehi assasination of Bernadotte plus Colonel Serot was later: late 1948 and in Early Israel, Tel Aviv, not wartime Cairo. Count Bernadotte was also an aristocrat but Swedish, and he was the very first UN negotiator. That was also, arguably a booboo, Golani.
                Firstly-thanks, I learned some new things.
                Secondly, with all the "con's" of killing DeMoin (the biggest was him being in the Guinness dynasty) he was still a legitimate target.
                As for Mapai leader Arlosoroff that was a lot earlier, 1933. Is it still a hot potato? So you don't believe Stavsky killed Arlosoroff?
                Not so much, it gets brought up every once and a while.
                Officially the assassin is unknown, personally I find it very hard to believe that the group who held back during the "Sazon" and the bombing of the 'Altalena' just so there wouldn't be a "war between barothers" could ever do such a thing.

                On television, I remember seeing Leah Rabin saying it was "karma" that Stavsky (not to be confused with the French StavIsky) was killed in the shelling of the Altalenabrothers.
                Well, I have my strong opinions about Leah Rabin, but I'll hold myself.
                While her husband deserves SOME credit, she deserves none.

                You don't have ANY leftist friends?! No intellectuals? Artists? Dancers? Debaters?
                I do have some, don't get me wrong, you'll be surprised who many of them served with me, none the less I'd like to consider myself an intellectual and a debater

                Coffee and cakes with nice Labour girls in book-filled Ramat Gan/Caesaria spacious apartments?
                That I won't have, lefty girls in Israel have a tendency not to shave...

                Think Golani! As an officer you could be well connected with this elite, and end up...GENERAL Golani (when you are my age)! Dinner with King Jordan, Rabin's attractive granddaughter, Obama's daughters, big office with classy, fashionable university-educated secretaries?
                Thanks, but if it would cost me my beliefs, values and practically myself, I'd choose a muddy ditch, ugly smelly hairy men and an Lt. rank over the company of nice ladies, a big office and a general's rank.
                Aren't these Labour girls classier, more eduated, with more poise, and not as loud than those Betar and/or settler girls, no?!

                Ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! ha! (satanic laughter)

                signed,

                L'avocat du diable ("Devil's Advocate" in French)
                I'll let you off the hook for now, but you won't get another chance!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes, Golani, you are an excellent debater!

                  Enjoy your weekend,

                  Laurent.




                  Originally posted by Golani View Post

                  Firstly-thanks, I learned some new things.
                  Secondly, with all the "con's" of killing DeMoin (the biggest was him being in the Guinness dynasty) he was still a legitimate target.

                  Not so much, it gets brought up every once and a while.
                  Officially the assassin is unknown, personally I find it very hard to believe that the group who held back during the "Sazon" and the bombing of the 'Altalena' just so there wouldn't be a "war between barothers" could ever do such a thing.


                  Well, I have my strong opinions about Leah Rabin, but I'll hold myself.
                  While her husband deserves SOME credit, she deserves none.


                  I do have some, don't get me wrong, you'll be surprised who many of them served with me, none the less I'd like to consider myself an intellectual and a debater


                  That I won't have, lefty girls in Israel have a tendency not to shave...


                  Thanks, but if it would cost me my beliefs, values and practically myself, I'd choose a muddy ditch, ugly smelly hairy men and an Lt. rank over the company of nice ladies, a big office and a general's rank.


                  I'll let you off the hook for now, but you won't get another chance!

                  Comment

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