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If the Crusades Began Again, Which Arab Army/Hamas Irregulars Would the Israelis like

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  • If the Crusades Began Again, Which Arab Army/Hamas Irregulars Would the Israelis like

    When I say Crusades, I mean who the Arabs call the "Franj".

    Let's say Europe falls into a long, crippling economic depression and all of Christendom decides to march against both the Arab and Jew.

    Or say the Chinese go beserk and march westward but detour through the Silk Road in the Middle East, killing everybody along the way because they're not happy.

    Then the Arabs and the Israelis would have to join forces to defeat them.

    How would it play out?

  • #2
    too much jewish money in Europe, but if them asians came over to play, i think the israelis would be happy nuking it out by themselves

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    • #3
      Bottom line for Israel is that in general if they have to use nukes it only going to be nuking areas former enemies owned before

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      • #4
        So Hamas' Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and the IDF's Golani Brigade would Fight Shoulder to Shoulder!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by craven View Post
          Bottom line for Israel is that in general if they have to use nukes it only going to be nuking areas former enemies owned before
          "former enemies owned before"??? so, Israel itself??!? you lost me there

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          • #6
            Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
            When I say Crusades, I mean who the Arabs call the "Franj".

            Let's say Europe falls into a long, crippling economic depression and all of Christendom decides to march against both the Arab and Jew.

            Or say the Chinese go beserk and march westward but detour through the Silk Road in the Middle East, killing everybody along the way because they're not happy.

            Then the Arabs and the Israelis would have to join forces to defeat them.

            How would it play out?
            For the Jews to march with Hamas....
            Your Chinese must really amass...
            And what of the Druze...
            Who have nothing to lose...
            and the PLO, Fatah and Al Aqsas?

            Would the Syrians fight alongside?
            Or would they go to the desert and hide -
            And wait for the occasion
            Of a Chinese invasion
            To reclaim their Golani hillside?

            Such puzzling questions are these..
            And we've not even mentioned the Afghanis
            The Pushtuns and Pathans
            And various nations
            Between the Chinese and Iranis...

            Would the West allow the Chinese to reign?
            Or perhaps we'd have something to gain...
            A new type of cuisine
            Never been seen...
            Cous-cous with lox and chow mein....
            Last edited by Skoblin; 11 Jul 09, 13:02.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by GeneralTsoGood View Post
              "former enemies owned before"??? so, Israel itself??!? you lost me there
              Well if Israel is going to be dropping nuke it would be in in the Areas formerly knowns as Syria and Iraq if it a land campaign.

              Dropping nukes for to defend Germany would of been a major issue for the US but I am not all that sure that Israel would have the same concerns.
              Last edited by craven; 11 Jul 09, 15:39.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
                So Hamas' Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and the IDF's Golani Brigade would Fight Shoulder to Shoulder!
                Nah-AAAAH! don't even think about it.
                Never gonna happen...

                I don't think there is a real answer to the question, let alone the fact that none of the scenarios seem realistic to be...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Golani, think about all those Japanese films like Yojimbo, where long-time tribal arch-enemies have to join forces to fight a common foe!

                  Okay, you're right--the probability of it happening is next to nil (and God preserve us from another massive economic depression), but...if you had to approach Ibn-Qassam-Yalla-yalla-whoops-I-forgot-their-name-anyway Brigades which ones would you pick? Who are the best trained? How could you deploy?

                  It DID happen in the past. Both sides' best forces--Palmach and the Glubb Pacha's Arab Legion fought together against the Vichy French in Syria (along with Free French, Brits, and ANZACs). That's how Dayan lost his eye btw during Operation Exporter.

                  Also Arab writer Amin Maalouf wrote in "The Crusades as Seen from the Arab Viewpoint", that the Jews in Haifa fought very bravely when Godefroy de Bouillon's Crusaders beseiged them--they defended Haifa for over a month before being massacred; but allowed Salladin to regroup his forces. Salladin put tribute to the Jewish defenders of Haifa saying that they were extremely courageous. Later Jews and Arabs fought together in Jerusalem before Godefroy liquidated all the non-Christian inhabitants and Jerusalem became Christian.

                  Or are Hezbollah better trained than Hamas' brigades?

                  Oh, and what do you think of Skoblin's poem above?



                  Originally posted by Golani View Post
                  Nah-AAAAH! don't even think about it.
                  Never gonna happen...

                  I don't think there is a real answer to the question, let alone the fact that none of the scenarios seem realistic to be...
                  Last edited by olivenstein; 16 Jul 09, 19:06.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thread Moved To Alternate Timelines Forum

                    ACG Staff
                    On the Plains of Hesitation lie the blackened bones of countless millions who, at the dawn of victory, sat down to rest-and resting... died. Adlai E. Stevenson

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
                      Okay, you're right--the probability of it happening is next to nil (and God preserve us from another massive economic depression), but...if you had to approach Ibn-Qassam-Yalla-yalla-whoops-I-forgot-their-name-anyway Brigades which ones would you pick? Who are the best trained? How could you deploy?
                      ...
                      Or are Hezbollah better trained than Hamas' brigades?
                      Look, I think I fought against almost any Palestinian fraction known and against Hizbollah, speaking professionally only (leaving ideology and such aside) I'd might be o.k fighting alongside Hizbollah, especially if we're talking guerrilla warfare (even though when you take the civilian element out, like is expected fighting against China in the ME) they are almost castrated.

                      I would never ever want to find myself fighting shoulder to shoulder with any Palestinian organization, you'd be good as dead anyway.

                      It DID happen in the past. Both sides' best forces--Palmach and the Glubb Pacha's Arab Legion fought together against the Vichy French in Syria (along with Free French, Brits, and ANZACs). That's how Dayan lost his eye btw during Operation Exporter.
                      The Palmach were Britain puppies', don't forget they were formed, trained and equipped by Britain during the desperate war against Rommel and his Afrika Korps,

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                      • #12
                        The British

                        Why are Hizbollah better fighters than Hamas? Is it training?

                        Or...is it a cultural thing? Are Sunni men tied to their tribes/extended family/mother's apron strings more than Shia? Don't shia expect martyrdom more?

                        So are you saying that if (hypothetically of course!) the Chinese went in the Arab village and killed the whole "schmala" (wives, grandparents, children, the fat Arab mother), would the Arab men hidden in the hills would be crushed emotionally? Or would they say too bad, and keep on fighting?

                        The former scenario was in any case assumed as a given in the French Army in Algeria--that is how the French would make most Algerian insurgents crack immediately by kidnapping the whole Arab family. Another trick the French used was using black troops "les Senegalais". For some reason, the Arabs absolutely DREADED seeing black soldiers in their villages. A very real fear that worked well when the French crushed the Setif rebellion.

                        But (and politics asides Golani--don't get mad!) back on the issue of training, weren't the Palmach better trained BECAUSE of the British, such as Charles Orde Wingate and his Jewish Special Night Squads, the Stirling brothers in Sinai (SOE), etc. to send Palmach Jews into Vichy Syria or, as you well mentioned, against the Afrikakorps and the Italians.

                        Pro-Jacobinsky Etzel/Irgun/Lehi troops may have been brave (almost foolhardy some would say...), but they were not as well trained and lived in the towns and cities, instead of the tough kibboutz conditions, no?

                        The British trained Arab Legion proved that Arabs could fight very well, as Englishman Glubb Pacha wrote in his book about his Arabs defeating the Israelis before Jerusalem in '48.

                        Are many older Israelis still anti-British? Funnily, many Arab are also so!



                        Originally posted by Golani View Post
                        Look, I think I fought against almost any Palestinian fraction known and against Hizbollah, speaking professionally only (leaving ideology and such aside) I'd might be o.k fighting alongside Hizbollah, especially if we're talking guerrilla warfare (even though when you take the civilian element out, like is expected fighting against China in the ME) they are almost castrated.

                        I would never ever want to find myself fighting shoulder to shoulder with any Palestinian organization, you'd be good as dead anyway.


                        The Palmach were Britain puppies', don't forget they were formed, trained and equipped by Britain during the desperate war against Rommel and his Afrika Korps,

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by olivenstein View Post
                          Why are Hizbollah better fighters than Hamas? Is it training?

                          Or...is it a cultural thing? Are Sunni men tied to their tribes/extended family/mother's apron strings more than Shia? Don't shia expect martyrdom more?
                          I don't know the origins to it, but its a fact, Hizbollah in it's tactics acts like a guerrilla organization and a good one.
                          Camouflage, using the ground and the local populace to their advantage, small unit action, etc.

                          So are you saying that if (hypothetically of course!) the Chinese went in the Arab village and killed the whole "schmala" (wives, grandparents, children, the fat Arab mother), would the Arab men hidden in the hills would be crushed emotionally? Or would they say too bad, and keep on fighting?
                          No, what I meant by that is that contrary to it's tactics, Hizbollah's strategy is terror based, if the Chinese came, there would be no civilians to hit and manipulate-leaving the organization confused.

                          But (and politics asides Golani--don't get mad!) back on the issue of training, weren't the Palmach better trained BECAUSE of the British, such as Charles Orde Wingate and his Jewish Special Night Squads, the Stirling brothers in Sinai (SOE), etc. to send Palmach Jews into Vichy Syria or, as you well mentioned, against the Afrikakorps and the Italians.
                          Yup, that's exactly what I said.
                          Pro-Jacobinsky Etzel/Irgun/Lehi troops may have been brave (almost foolhardy some would say...), but they were not as well trained and lived in the towns and cities, instead of the tough kibboutz conditions, no?
                          It's more complicated then that, don't forget the Hagana (and Palmach in it) was the "consensus" and the Irgun (Etzel) and Lehi were viewed as outcasts by the mainstream.
                          None the less they had some fantastic operational achievements, the king David hotel in 1946 for example.

                          Are many older Israelis still anti-British? Funnily, many Arab are also so!
                          Not as much as you'd think...
                          The hatred towardes the German and the east-European nations takes a larger space in the people's hearts.

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                          • #14
                            Point # 1: Which Eastern European countries fill the oldtimers' hearts with hatred? Isn't it a love-hate relationship with Russia, for instance? Foreign Minister Avigador Liebermann's meeting with Putin was extra cordial after Israel's cooling with Obama, right?

                            Point # 2: Well, you wrote that the Palmach were the "puppies of the British", it seemed a little dismissive as choice of words...your historical sympathies lie less with Palmach and more with the Etzel here, no?

                            Or do you leave politics completely aside when it comes to combat?

                            Personally, I believe all sides in a conflict have a story to tell. Nothings black and white (I'm finding that out with the Spanish Civil War accounts that I'm currently reading).

                            True! I had forgotten the King David operation. Also in Jaffa, Irgunists had made some excellent gains in house-to-house combat against the Arabs, almost outdoing the Arabs in ambush tactics in '48.

                            Which brings me to a question: Arthur Koestler wrote that Irgun and Lehi mostly were led by Polish Jews such as Begin and Shamir but had a Palestinian Sephardic following (from Ottoman times)--was that true? Was it easier for these sepharades to blend in and conduct operations against Arab targets?

                            It's true that in the popular media like the Hollywood movie "Exodus" its seen the Haganah as spotless Socialist heros sunkissed from the kibbutz forward into combat as noble Hebrew warriors (Paul Newman)--while the "Stern Gang" and Irgun as murdering confused anti-British terrorists. Others mention of course Dir Yassin (exaggerated, I believe), Arlosoroff assasination, the Altalena debacle, Abraham Stern's written offer to the approaching nazis, Lord Moyne of the Guinness family and Count Folke Bernadotte, upstanding enlightened aristocrats gunned down by uncontrollables, et caetera et caetera.

                            This is the prevailing picture that is painted again and again without any attempt to find out more about who these men and women of the right-wing of the Underground were.

                            Have you met any veterans of Irgun or Lehi and heard their stories? (or Palmah in British service for that matter!) What was life like under the British for the Yeshuv? Why did they anger both the Muslim Arabs and Yeshuv at the same time? Was it their flegmatic standoff attitude? Their supercilliousness? Stiff upper lip, and priority given to keeping up appearances above all? (I've read that the English favoured the Christian Arabs and were worried about them losing influence/property, etc.)

                            Too many questions! Enjoy your week, man,

                            Laurent
                            Last edited by olivenstein; 19 Jul 09, 05:39.

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                            • #15
                              It won't happened unless fanatic Haredim riot and burn Sepulchere church; fortunetly they're too busy anoying secular shabas car parking Israelis Franks were not keen to fight Sarecens in Palsetine unlike Spain or Italy untill expansionist Turks/crazy Fatimid Caliph Hakim provoked them. Israel on other hand is granting the free acess to holy places for christian pilgrims so there's no reason for crusade to be called. And primary target in the event of economic meltdown woud be muslim colonists anyway. Modern Arab/muslims won't grant the dhimi status to Israelis (and I doubt that Jews except NK types woud acept this); the muslim won't acept them as equal becouse infidels are not allowed to rule muslim lands in Sharia so the prospect of this aliance is very slim even against PRC. Chinese woud crush Hezbollah in the week time as they're not media sensitive as IDF is. AQ shud realy not threaten them.
                              Kosovo is Serbian.
                              I support United Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
                              Behead those who say Islam is violent!

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