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1425 The Treasure Fleet anchors off Lisbon

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  • 1425 The Treasure Fleet anchors off Lisbon

    What would be the effect on Europe if the Ming treasure fleet made a stop there?

  • #2
    price of gold & silver wud go down in spain and portugal ?

    Comment


    • #3
      1st thing that comes to mind is total shock. We aren't talking about a couple of sail boats here. All the impact that this would have made in Europe and European history is well beyond imaging. The naval architecture of the Ming fleet was well advanced over the European ship design at the time with water tight compartments for starters. Then the intent of the fleet? Friendly or hostle Eurocentrics might make light of the chinese of the time. They were at least the equal to Europe in most all areas of warfare and more so in cultural advancements. Just my usual nsho
      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

      Comment


      • #4
        interesting WI would be chinease colonization of the americas and europeans losing out in this race ....

        Comment


        • #5
          The Ming fleet never showed that much interest in establishing colonies. At most trading centers. Most of these were not even need as the West(Arab) had large trading centers already established in China.
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
            The naval architecture of the Ming fleet was well advanced over the European ship design at the time with water tight compartments for starters.
            What about speed and nimbleness?

            Eurocentrics might make light of the chinese of the time. They were at least the equal to Europe in most all areas of warfare and more so in cultural advancements. Just my usual nsho
            I wonder what the Chinese would make of steel plate armour?

            Of course the European Renaissance was only just taking off at this time.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Gooner View Post
              What about speed and nimbleness?



              I wonder what the Chinese would make of steel plate armour?

              Of course the European Renaissance was only just taking off at this time.
              In 1425 speed wasn't that good on European ships. Steel plate was not used on ships. The nimbleness would be a small advantage to the Europeans, I guess, at least over the Treasure Ships. The smaller escort ships might be another question.

              The below is a part of a Wiki entry under Ming treasure ships


              Treasure ships, used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 126.73 metres (416 ft) long and 51.84 metres (170 ft) wide), according to later writers. This is more or less the size and shape of a football field. The treasure ships purportedly could carry as much as 1,500 tons. 1[27][28] By way of comparison, a modern ship of about 1,200 tons is 60 meters (200 ft) long [1], and the ships Christopher Columbus sailed to the New World in 1492 were about 70-100 tons and 17 meters (55 ft) long.[29]
              Equine ships (Chinese:馬船), carrying horses and tribute goods and repair material for the fleet (eight-masted, about 103 m (339 ft) long and 42 m (138 ft) wide).[27]
              Supply ships (Chinese:粮船), containing staple for the crew (seven-masted, about 78 m (257 ft) long and 35 m (115 ft) wide).[27]
              Troop transports(Chinese:兵船), six-masted, about 67 m (220 ft) long and 25 m (83 ft) wide.[27]
              Fuchuan warships (Chinese:福船), five-masted, about 50 m (165 ft) long.[27]
              Patrol boats (Chinese:坐船), eight-oared, about 37 m (120 ft) long.[27]
              Water tankers (Chinese:水船), with 1 month's supply of fresh water.[27]
              Six more expeditions took place, from 1407 to 1433, with fleets of comparable size.[30]

              If the accounts can be taken as factual, Zheng He's treasure ships were mammoth ships with nine masts, four decks, and were capable of accommodating more than 500 passengers, as well as a massive amount of cargo. Marco Polo and Ibn Battuta both described multi-masted ships carrying 500 to 1000 passengers in their translated accounts.[31] Niccolò Da Conti, a contemporary of Zheng He, was also an eyewitness of ships in Southeast Asia, claiming to have seen 5 masted junks weighing about 2000 tons[32] Zheng He's fleet included 300 ships, including 62 treasure ships, with some which were said to have been 137 m (450 ft) long and 55 m (180 ft) wide.[33][34][35] There are even some sources that claim some of the treasure ships might have been as long as 600 feet.[36][37] On the ships, there were over 28,000 people, including navigators, explorers, sailors, doctors, workers, and soldiers.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He


              As noted in the full entry some of the dimensions are questionable. Modern researchers still have the ships as being much bigger than European ships of the same period.

              Steel is not a European invention. There have been hints around that steel may have been made as early as the 4th century, in India. Modern steel making only came about in the 1850's. Four hundred years after the What IF date of 1425.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                In 1425 speed wasn't that good on European ships. Steel plate was not used on ships. The nimbleness would be a small advantage to the Europeans, I guess, at least over the Treasure Ships. The smaller escort ships might be another question.
                Genoese and Venetian galleys? Were they not very quick and nimble?

                Steel is not a European invention. There have been hints around that steel may have been made as early as the 4th century, in India. Modern steel making only came about in the 1850's. Four hundred years after the What IF date of 1425.
                Steel plate armour, you know of the type worn by Knights and increasing by ordinary European soldiers - give them an advantage in a fight I reckon.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                  Genoese and Venetian galleys? Were they not very quick and nimble?
                  Of course, but they would not have been off Lisbon. You may of noticed that the Ming fleet also had galleys with it as fighting ships. The quality of which I don't know.


                  Steel plate armour, you know of the type worn by Knights and increasing by ordinary European soldiers - give them an advantage in a fight I reckon.
                  No doubt. But was the armor made of steel or other metals. So far I have only found conflicting data.
                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                    You may of noticed that the Ming fleet also had galleys with it as fighting ships
                    And if they managed to row to Europe from China that would indeed be an awesome achievement.


                    Other than that I see the Europeans as being impressed but not overawed by a Ming fleet.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                      And if they managed to row to Europe from China that would indeed be an awesome achievement.


                      Other than that I see the Europeans as being impressed but not overawed by a Ming fleet.

                      They used rice powered engines

                      Here we have a conflict of opinion, not unusual.

                      The size of the ships and the number plus the distance traveled would have impress for sure. Awed, maybe. Overawed doubtful. Treatened?
                      "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                      Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                      you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        By 1420, China’s navy was the largest in the world, with 400 large war junks stationed at Nanking, 1,350 warships, river and canal patrol boats stationed elsewhere, 3,000 merchant vessels that could be converted into fighting ships if needed, 400 huge grain transports, and 250 “treasure ships,” overseas warships that brought back riches from far flung missions of trade and diplomacy.

                        Under the command of Admiral Zheng He, a fleet of these huge junks- some over 200 feet long - armed with cannon, rockets, and guns, carried Chinese naval power and trade throughout Southeast Asia and into the Indian Ocean, pushing back pirates and reopening trade with India, Arab East Africa, and the Ottoman Empire between 1405 and 1433. These large warships may have even been larger, but in the absence of archaeological remains, archaeologists and historians argue over the size of Zheng He’s ships. Some insist that the ships could have been as long as 440 feet, with a 180-foot width or beam. ...... cont.

                        http://www.vancouvermaritimemuseum.c....jsp&page2=239

                        More information

                        In 1405, a Chinese naval commander named Cheng Ho [b 1371] set sail from China on a journey of exploration comparable in its geographical scale to the well-known voyage of Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama. Cheng Ho's grand fleet of 318 ships was laden with cargoes of fine Chinese silk and other valuable trade goods. It was equipped with the latest Chinese navigational instruments, and armed with a massive arsenal of military weapons and a largely military crew of 27,800. From the Yangtze Estuary, it sailed down through the South China Sea to Champa, Java, Sumatra, Siam, Ceylon, and Calicut on India's Malabar Coast before returning home. ..... cont.

                        http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_histo...gtreasure.html

                        At the very least it would have given the Europeans that witnessed the treasure fleet a certain sense of perspective.
                        Signing out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                          No doubt. But was the armor made of steel or other metals. So far I have only found conflicting data.
                          This would be similar metal armour to that worn by the European armies slaughtered by the Mongols? Or the armour worn by the French knights at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt? Let's not even get started on what happened to the Crusaders. Metal armour may have offered some protection during tourneys and in one-on-one combat on the battlefield but when faced with a large number of more agile, if lightly armoured, foes it was a liability.
                          Signing out.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                            This would be similar metal armour to that worn by the European armies slaughtered by the Mongols? Or the armour worn by the French knights at Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt? Let's not even get started on what happened to the Crusaders. Metal armour may have offered some protection during tourneys and in one-on-one combat on the battlefield but when faced with a large number of more agile, if lightly armoured, foes it was a liability.

                            So was this metal brass, iron, or steel? Steel on a large scale didn't come along until the mid 1800's. But we have steel sword blades being made much earlier.
                            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                              So was this metal brass, iron, or steel? Steel on a large scale didn't come along until the mid 1800's. But we have steel sword blades being made much earlier.
                              Looking at my little book on Medieval Military Dress by Christopher Rothero it's clear that the best metal armour in the time period we're discussing was steel. This was expensive, of course, not least because each suit had to be made to measure - ensuring maximum mobility once the weight was taken into account.
                              Signing out.

                              Comment

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