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  • #16
    Originally posted by Shamil View Post
    Somalians without any centralized state institutions have recently kick the ass of the regular Ethiopian Armed forces. The whole NATO can't cope with Somalian pirates.
    I'm glad it suits you then

    Non-violent protests demanding what?
    Reunification with Russia

    They are not big patriots but they won't give up everything without any resistance. Otherwise they wouldn't have become oligarchs. All their sources of income come from the ship called Ukraine.
    Well, exactly, when this ship starts sinking they won't have much choice.
    www.histours.ru

    Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ShAA View Post

      Do you really think the Russian army is still in the same shape as in 1994?
      On the whole it is not qualitatively better. If you have some data testifying that it beame qualitatively better, please post them.
      RF's best troops are located in the North Caucases can't be withdrawn from the region due to complicated situation there. The minimal required number for the army invading Ukraine is 200000 under the Russian military standards. It is enormous number for the present-day Russian armed forces. In fact Moscow will have to do its best to gather such contingent and significant part of it may be even worse than the troops invading Chachnya.


      And most importantly, are you serious to compare the Chechens who grow up with rifles and daggers in their hands, and the modern Ukrainians who basically are the same as modern Russians in this respect?

      In the early 1990s it passed a few years since the Soviet collpase. Chechens did not grow up with rifles and dagger under the Soviets.
      The Soviets were reluctant in recruiting officers among Chechens and most of Soviet soldiers of Chechen origin were kept out of elite or even average Soviet units, mainly sent to stroybat and other auxillliary units as they were not trusted.



      Well, this option is something most sane people abandoned when Putin came to power, but it seems like the Ukrainian strategists are still in the Yeltsin's days
      Last year the RF troops retreated from Georgia when they were next to its capital. In fact, it was Yeltsin that separated Abkhazia and S. Ossetia from Georgia. Putin just retreated when he was hinted from Washington that the relations between the RF-West may be seriously revised if Moscow does not pull out its troops.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Shamil View Post
        On the whole it is not qualitatively better. If you have some data testifying that it beame qualitatively better, please post them.
        It's hard to post any assessments here beside those related to the Georgian war - after all, real combat is the only way to see how well a fighting is prepared. Still I've spoken to many people who said that the increase in wages and some improvement in living conditions for the soldiers positively affected their morale. Most importantly, the situations when officers sold their weapons to the people that would kill their own men with them will definitely not be repeated. Nuts have been tightened to a considerable degree.

        In fact Moscow will have to do its best to gather such contingent and significant part of it may be even worse than the troops invading Chachnya.
        There can't be anything worse that what happened back then, as the army and the state were practically non-existent. Now is an entirely different situation.

        In the early 1990s it passed a few years since the Soviet collpase. Chechens did not grow up with rifles and dagger under the Soviets.
        The Soviets were reluctant in recruiting officers among Chechens and most of Soviet soldiers of Chechen origin were kept out of elite or even average Soviet units, mainly sent to stroybat and other auxillliary units as they were not trusted.
        BS. Speaking of officers - do you remember who Dudayev was? Some of the officers who fought in Afghanistan said the Chechens were the best fighters they had ever had. In fact the Russian army was fighting a professional fighting force, with its officers being graduates of Soviet military colleges and soldiers that had done their tours of duty in Afghanistan. As for the Chechen boys - you seem to be woefully misinformed about the realities of Soviet life. While in the European part of the country the Soviets were more or less true to their stated social policies, in the Caucasus and Central Asia the real power was in the hands of local clans "coated" with Communist ideology. And the Chechens had quite a free access to weapons and other stuff to keep their, erm, "wonderful tribal peculiarities" alive. So don't even try to compare the Chechens taught to kill since their birth to Ukrainian (or Russian for that matter) urban pansy boys.

        Last year the RF troops retreated from Georgia when they were next to its capital. In fact, it was Yeltsin that separated Abkhazia and S. Ossetia from Georgia. Putin just retreated when he was hinted from Washington that the relations between the RF-West may be seriously revised if Moscow does not pull out its troops.
        Have you heard the joke about the Uncatchable Joe?
        www.histours.ru

        Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Janos View Post

          How then, do you think a hypothetical war between Ukraine and Russia might start?
          If the RF needs to find a pretext to start a war, the Kremlin will just organize some terrorist acts against its own Russian Black Sea contingent in Crimea. Moscow will accuse some Ukrainian "fascists" of attacks. The Russian Mass Media has already prepared the appropriate grounds for such development among the inhabitants of the RF. Since Putin's coming into power the RF's Mass Media have never stopped telling them about the sharp rise of fascism/nazism in Ukraine and linked it to the mainstream parties and government. That's why the RF's propaganda can also ascribe terrorist acts against the Russian Black Sea contingent to the official Ukrainian government as conniving at terrorists or being behind terrorists. At the same period Kremlin can create serious interethnic tensions in the whole Crimea between Crimean Tartars who make up about 20% of peninsula's population and local Slavic community. Crimea is the only region of Ukraine where the RF has some fringe but true pro-Moscow organizations including the ones of skin-head/Russain cossack type. If they are instructed and reinforced by Kremlin specialsists they can stage a series of attacks on Tartars plus conduct some assissinations of Tartar leaders to provoke a violent Tartar response and thus create additional pretext for Russian intervention.
          Last edited by Shamil; 23 Jun 09, 04:42.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ShAA View Post
            It's hard to post any assessments here beside those related to the Georgian war - after all, real combat is the only way to see how well a fighting is prepared. Still I've spoken to many people who said that the increase in wages and some improvement in living conditions for the soldiers positively affected their morale. Most importantly, the situations when officers sold their weapons to the people that would kill their own men with them will definitely not be repeated. Nuts have been tightened to a considerable degree.
            Still the idea of serving in the Russian Armed Forces averts most of potential Russian conscripts even when there are no large-scale conflicts. People do their best to avoid the service and the Russian ministry of defense comes up with initiatives to make students and University graduates serve in the Armed Forces. Of course, Ukrainian military comes from the Soviet one as well. However, it has been reduced to 149000 and the Ukrainian ministry of defense says that it does not have problems with recruiting conscripts as the numbers of those who do not mind serving satisfy the needs of the reduced Armed Forces in men.


            There can't be anything worse that what happened back then, as the army and the state were practically non-existent. Now is an entirely different situation.
            I do not agree. In 1994 the RF army was bigger than it is now. Most of its weapons were newer. If the RF state had been practically non-existent, the war in Chechnya wouldn't have happened.

            BS. Speaking of officers - do you remember who Dudayev was? Some of the officers who fought in Afghanistan said the Chechens were the best fighters they had ever had. In fact the Russian army was fighting a professional fighting force, with its officers being graduates of Soviet military colleges and soldiers that had done their tours of duty in Afghanistan.
            The fact is that the bulk of Chechen warlords haven't been officers and have not been in the Soviet army combat units. They were amateurs.

            Most of witnesses and observers say that even during the two defences of Grozniy most of Chechen fighters were either undisciplined militiamen with no authority or answering only to orders coming only from their immediate field commander. The set centralized command structure has been non-existant among Chechens opposing the Russian troops during both wars. Chechens never resembled professional fighting force. They have been paramilitary fighting force split between the command of different warlords.

            As for the Chechen boys - you seem to be woefully misinformed about the realities of Soviet life. While in the European part of the country the Soviets were more or less true to their stated social policies, in the Caucasus and Central Asia the real power was in the hands of local clans "coated" with Communist ideology. And the Chechens had quite a free access to weapons and other stuff to keep their, erm, "wonderful tribal peculiarities" alive. So don't even try to compare the Chechens taught to kill since their birth to Ukrainian (or Russian for that matter) urban pansy boys.
            Chechens had no access to military weapons under the USSR. You definitely exaggerate. Yes, they kept local traditions and clan system but Soviet Russians and Ukrainians had much higher percentage of military specialists. In the 1960-1980 the Soviet military tended to stick to ethnic principles in manning its Armed Forces. For instance, the Soviet troops located in the countries of Warsaw pact were considered above average and were usually manned by Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Baltic nationals. The soldiers from the Central Asian and Caucasus republics were kept in the USSR in the ordinary units of average and low significance. The same situation with recruiting diffrent nationals to army officer colleges. Early 1990s conflict between Armenians and Azeris in Karabach was more close to the notion of war between regular armies. The key factor that played against Azeris was almost total absence of Azeri officers in the old Soviet armed forces who could lead the new army of independant Azerbaijan against Armenian separatists.
            Last edited by Shamil; 23 Jun 09, 05:22.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Shamil View Post
              Still the idea of serving in the Russian Armed Forces averts most of potential Russian conscripts even when there are no large-scale conflicts. People do their best to avoid the service and the Russian ministry of defense comes up with initiatives to make students and University graduates serve in the Armed Forces. Of course, Ukrainian military comes from the Soviet one as well. However, it has been reduced to 149000 and the Ukrainian ministry of defense says that it does not have problems with recruiting conscripts as the numbers of those who do not mind serving satisfy the needs of the reduced Armed Forces in men.
              Those who avoid service are guys from urban areas who have higher ambitions and better career opprotunities in the civilian sphere. In the villages the most promising way to move into a big city is to serve in the army and then to join the police. So there are still plenty of those who would like to serve.

              I do not agree. In 1994 the RF army was bigger than it is now. Most of its weapons were newer. If the RF state had been practically non-existent, the war in Chechnya wouldn't have happened.
              It doesn't matter what kind of weapons it had when information about attacks was sent directly to the Chechens and cease-fires were declared when "Chechen friends" in Moscow wanted their finghting friends to retreat and rearm. And when officers would sell these weapons you've mentioned to the Chechens or sell them attack plans. In this state even the American army wouldn't have coped with this terrorist scum.

              Most of witnesses and observers say that even during the two defences of Grozniy most of Chechen fighters were either undisciplined militiamen with no authority or answering only to orders coming only from their immediate field commander. The set centralized command structure has been non-existant among Chechens opposing the Russian troops during both wars. Chechens never resembled professional fighting force. They have been paramilitary fighting force split between the command of different warlords.
              Oh come on. It was a flexible chain, but they were still consulting with Dudayev and shared information with each other. Their communications were much better than those of the Russian army that used WW2 era phones and sent unencoded radio transmissions.

              Chechens had no access to military weapons under the USSR. You definitely exaggerate. Yes, they kept local traditions and clan system but Soviet Russians and Ukrainians had much higher percentage of military specialists.
              So what? It's the concentration of these specialists that matters. And here's a quote from Stratfor

              The Chechen militancy tried to move operations to neighboring republics such as Dagestan and Ingushetia, but that has not worked, either. Any militants among Russia's large Chechen population centered in Moscow could still launch large attacks, though Moscow has cracked down on everything from dissidence to more serious terrorist threats. Thus, it is pretty dangerous for Chechen militants to operate anywhere in Russia, and the militants who are still alive and not in prison are marketing their skills to jihadists around the world.
              www.histours.ru

              Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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              • #22
                26.06.09 The President of the Ukraine Victor Yustchenko claimed "no self-respecting man would join in the Ukrainian army as it is not an honour with its current level of funding". He also emphacised that the level of Ukrainian contract soldiers dropped for the first time in 5 years. According to him, the salary of a contract soldier "is lower than the average provincial wage, starting from Volhynian province and ending with Odessa province".

                http://revisor.od.ua/news/Slugit_v_u...ne_uva-003290/
                Last edited by ShAA; 26 Jun 09, 16:56.
                www.histours.ru

                Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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