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D-Day November 1942

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  • Originally posted by Freebird View Post
    Which bay?
    That's a chart of Quiberon Bay in southern France.

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    • Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
      I expect there will be some damage from submarines, not enough to stop the show, but damage none the less. Conversely submarines that are committed here are in range of Coastal Commands air fleet & its smaller surface ships, so the escorts and sub hunters are far denser that in the Mid Atlantic. Also the mass of escorts used to support Op Torch and its months of follow up are now here off the French coast, or reinforcing the Atlantic convoys. I don't have precise numbers, but it appears the convoy escorts can be increased by some 50% if there is no Tunisian campaign.

      Over the long haul of November> March this is liable to accelerate the losses of the submarine fleet. Heavy bombers were mentioned a bit earlier in this thread. A good use for some of them in this campaign would be attacking the enemy naval bases on the French coast.
      The problem is, that this invasion and lodgment, means that the Allies are on the doorstep of the two largest U-boat bases in France. Neither has the bombproof U-boat pens in place at this time, and both are now within heavy artillery range of the Allies.

      I'd expect the KM to abandon both as bases and move their subs somewhere else. That alone is a huge disruption in the U-boat schedule and would have had a major positive impact on Atlantic shipping for the Allies.

      Trying to attack shipping as it comes into the bay (likely under escort) would be difficult at best. Getting inside the bay when the Allies have mined all the entry channels except where they have guarded openings, would be extremely hard to do, not to mention with less than 100 feet of water, a U-boat is virtually surfaced even when submerged and will be visible from the air.

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      • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
        That's a chart of Quiberon Bay in southern France.
        You might want to check an atlas...

        Southern side of Brittany peninsula.

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        • Originally posted by Aber View Post
          You might want to check an atlas...

          Southern side of Brittany peninsula.
          Stop picking nits. Us Americans see anything south of Paris as "Southern France..."

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          • Originally posted by Aber View Post
            You might want to check an atlas...

            Southern side of Brittany peninsula.
            Making it the NorthWest part of the Western Coast of France bringing it in the ballgame of this 1942 "Invade/Return via France" for USA's first bite of fighting the German's on land.

            Aside from the bare numbers of USA ground troops/units and ships to haul/land/protect available; there remains the "greeness" of US Army formations, especially when compared to the German Army which has about three years REAL Combat experience and much of that on the highly contested Russian Front. The USA(Allies) would be lucky to pull off another "Dunkirk" when Jerry kicked us off the continent.

            In wake of lessons learned from Guadalcanal against Japan, the Torch landings show as a near over-reach and the debacle of Kasserine should have been anticipated. As it was, hard learned lessons on the "frontiers" of North Africa and Southern Med./Italy would be needed before engaging the German's on the Northern part of the continent. Their "weakness" in numbers and preparations could not be outweighed or overcome by Allied inexperience and marginal numbers.

            Late 1943 to early 1944 is the best and earliest time to try an invasion of France and I'd suggest that Southern rather than Western would be the better avenue if trying before going in at the North.
            Southern France D-Day Before Northern France D-Day
            TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
            “War is merely the continuation of politics by other means” - von Clausewitz
            Present Current Events are the Future's History

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            • Originally posted by G David Bock View Post
              Making it the NorthWest part of the Western Coast of France bringing it in the ballgame of this 1942 "Invade/Return via France" for USA's first bite of fighting the German's on land.

              Aside from the bare numbers of USA ground troops/units and ships to haul/land/protect available; there remains the "greeness" of US Army formations, especially when compared to the German Army which has about three years REAL Combat experience and much of that on the highly contested Russian Front. The USA(Allies) would be lucky to pull off another "Dunkirk" when Jerry kicked us off the continent.

              In wake of lessons learned from Guadalcanal against Japan, the Torch landings show as a near over-reach and the debacle of Kasserine should have been anticipated. As it was, hard learned lessons on the "frontiers" of North Africa and Southern Med./Italy would be needed before engaging the German's on the Northern part of the continent. Their "weakness" in numbers and preparations could not be outweighed or overcome by Allied inexperience and marginal numbers.

              Late 1943 to early 1944 is the best and earliest time to try an invasion of France and I'd suggest that Southern rather than Western would be the better avenue if trying before going in at the North.
              Southern France D-Day Before Northern France D-Day
              Guadalcanal went extremely successfully. The USMC landed and routed the opposition. Even the more vigorous defense of Tulagi Island and the harbor there was defeated handily.
              The Torch landings went well and the US achieved all of their objectives easily.
              At Kasserine the US Army was very much a mixed bag for results. In some cases they did quite well. The artillery performed outstandingly. The main problem was the size of the front far exceeded the units available, and the pathetic leadership of Fredendall along with the political issues of the Allied forces led to a defeat. But, even then, the Germans proved incapable of turning that tactical and operational defeat into a strategic victory. That is, they beat the US on the battlefield but couldn't exploit the victory to turn it into a campaign win.

              This is no different. Worse, the Allies in this scenario would lack most of the exploitable issues that were present at Kasserine.

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              • Comment


                • Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                  While storms are possible, as your anecdotal picture shows, the average weather is anything but prohibitive.

                  https://beach-weather.com/Western-Eu...eron/November/

                  It runs about 50 Fahrenheit with winds around 10 to 15 mph and is rainy about 50% of the time. Overcast is about 75 to 80%.

                  That makes it cold, rainy, and overcast, but not particularly rough seas within the bay. That wouldn't preclude landings on most days and the Allies should be able to predict the weather at least a week or so in advance.

                  The US did land on the Atlantic coast of N. Africa under similar conditions without too much difficulty so it should be possible to do the same at Quiberon Bay.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                    While storms are possible, as your anecdotal picture shows, the average weather is anything but prohibitive.

                    https://beach-weather.com/Western-Eu...eron/November/

                    It runs about 50 Fahrenheit with winds around 10 to 15 mph and is rainy about 50% of the time. Overcast is about 75 to 80%.

                    That makes it cold, rainy, and overcast, but not particularly rough seas within the bay. That wouldn't preclude landings on most days and the Allies should be able to predict the weather at least a week or so in advance.

                    The US did land on the Atlantic coast of N. Africa under similar conditions without too much difficulty so it should be possible to do the same at Quiberon Bay.

                    Except. "Parts of the continental shelf extend far into the bay, resulting in fairly shallow waters in many areas and thus the rough seas for which the region is known. Large storms occur in the bay, especially during the winter months. The Bay of Biscay is home to some of the Atlantic Ocean's fiercest weather; abnormally high waves occur there. Up until recent years it was a regular occurrence for merchant vessels to founder in Biscay storms."
                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Biscay

                    I though the terrible seas that can happen in the Bay of Biscay were well known.

                    I question the ability to predict the weather a week in advance. How early was the 'great storm' in Normandy in June predicted? I expect a great storm in the Channel in the summer - which destroyed hundreds of landing craft - would be nothing like a great storm in the Bay of Biscay in the winter.

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                    • Historical D-Day was itself a huge risk. When looking at all the things in place which were required to make D-Day (1944) a success then consider that a supposed D-Day in 1942 is to take place, very few if any of those things are in place. Add to the fact that Quiberon bay is well know for unseen reefs and shoals, I fail to see how such an invasion would be even considered.

                      The long sandy beaches of North Africa is one thing...the rocky coast of Quiberon Bay is an entirely different scene.
                      You'll live, only the best get killed.

                      -General Charles de Gaulle

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                      • Nice to see this one revived.

                        As the study by Michael Guimarra shows the Brits (apparently in a fit of optimism) determined in the summer of 1942 that a October invasion of the Cotientin Peninsula would be just the thing. The east coast of the Cotientin would be better sheltered from the Atlantic storms. A detailed plan was written, then tabled as attention turned to beating up on the French.

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                        • Originally posted by asterix View Post
                          Historical D-Day was itself a huge risk. When looking at all the things in place which were required to make D-Day (1944) a success then consider that a supposed D-Day in 1942 is to take place, very few if any of those things are in place. Add to the fact that Quiberon bay is well know for unseen reefs and shoals, I fail to see how such an invasion would be even considered.

                          The long sandy beaches of North Africa is one thing...the rocky coast of Quiberon Bay is an entirely different scene.
                          Occupied France in 1942 was a very different creature. The Atlantic Wall didn't exist. There were far fewer German units in France and those that were there were generally of inferior quality.
                          The single infantry division, the 333rd, which is spread out over about 20 to 30 miles of coastline is the entirety of the defense on D-Day in this scenario.

                          I put up a marine navigation map of the bay. It's easily navigable.

                          The beaches are mostly gentle gradients and would be excellent for landing craft:





                          The locations I gave for the landings are like the photos above. Sand beaches with gentle gradients and not much to stop getting off them.

                          If the combined US and British landing forces can't defeat a single second rate (at best) Wehrmacht infantry division, equipped at least in part with hand-me-down weapons and equipment I'd say they should just surrender and let Germany win.

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