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  • Japan discovers huge quantities of oil and iron

    Geologists tap undiscoverd fields of oil in NE China and by the end of 1938 have wells producing all over Manchuria. While digging a foundation for a super-refinery in Korea, the Japs also discover a new source of Iron.

    With two of the most crucial elements to expand their war machine, they begin an even more elaborate arms race, with German tank designs leeding the way.
    "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

    "One finger is all any real American needs"

    "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

  • #2
    all possible... but the actual physical restriction of manufacturing capabilities on the home islands.... coupled with continued fierce resistance and sabotage by the Nationalist and Marxists, aided and abetted by Chindit style; ie. western allied efforts defeat theirs.

    As a matter of fact the Doolittle raid is launched earlier with more continued.... and carrier ops... contrary to Mac's strategy... recieve first priority..hence an a/c cripples their efforts by 43. they retire and wait fer then end....Jan 44.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, with that, they might have been able to build an army that could have hit Russia in mid 41... or they might have been content to sit out the war. Hard to say...

      This is yet another time when the utter lack of Japanese posters in these websites is very frustrating to me.

      Comment


      • #4
        Japan eliminates logistic problems by modernizing its Korean province

        Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis View Post
        all possible... but the actual physical restriction of manufacturing capabilities on the home islands.... coupled with continued fierce resistance and sabotage by the Nationalist and Marxists, aided and abetted by Chindit style; ie. western allied efforts defeat theirs.

        As a matter of fact the Doolittle raid is launched earlier with more continued.... and carrier ops... contrary to Mac's strategy... recieve first priority..hence an a/c cripples their efforts by 43. they retire and wait fer then end....Jan 44.
        By developing the Korean peninsula Japan keeps its new resources directly linked to the Chiina front. It also removes the new mining and oil industries from the possibility of attack, which could not come from free china, and would be intercepted by bases in the home islands or formosa. With German help, the mass production of (shall we call them Janzers) proves to much for a divided China to resist and Nationalist China has no choice but to join Japan against Mao.
        "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

        "One finger is all any real American needs"

        "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

        Comment


        • #5
          The Japanese had identified pleanty of iron on the Asian mainland. They lacked the cargo ships to move it to the industrial sites in Japan and scale of industry on the mainland to exploit it. They had also a oilfield there, and suspected other sites, but there was not suffcient time to develop this.

          Beyond time, Japan lacked the broad pool of engineers and technicians needed to develop rapidly additional industrial plant or infarstructure. Its higher education system was designed to provide a realative small number of graduates, a highy skilled elite who were totally insuffcient for the scale of industrial expansion Japan needed to compete.

          To make the concept of this WI work you have to go back many decades. perhaps to the turn of the century and insert several significant changes.

          Comment


          • #6
            IF Japan had all these goodies at hand they would not have

            Worried about the US embargo.

            Attacked into SEA.

            Attacked PH.

            The US would not have imposed an embargo seeing as how it was at most useless and would depribe the Japanese of nothing they already had.

            Soooo, WWII would have remained in Europe. The Japanes can attack Russia, but for what? Drawing in the US in the Pacific?

            The US might have sat out the European War of Empires clashing as the Western European country's should have done an let the Germans and Russians kill each other off.
            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

            Comment


            • #7
              An Axis arangement to share technology and scientists

              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
              The Japanese had identified pleanty of iron on the Asian mainland. They lacked the cargo ships to move it to the industrial sites in Japan and scale of industry on the mainland to exploit it. They had also a oilfield there, and suspected other sites, but there was not suffcient time to develop this.

              Beyond time, Japan lacked the broad pool of engineers and technicians needed to develop rapidly additional industrial plant or infarstructure. Its higher education system was designed to provide a realative small number of graduates, a highy skilled elite who were totally insuffcient for the scale of industrial expansion Japan needed to compete.

              To make the concept of this WI work you have to go back many decades. perhaps to the turn of the century and insert several significant changes.
              A free exchange of tech/leadership between the Axis members could have bridged the shortfalls in development for each, giving them all a great leap forward. While Japan had a large merchant fleet, the proposal was to develop everything on the Korean peninsula for quicker rail shipping to the China front.
              "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

              "One finger is all any real American needs"

              "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

              Comment


              • #8
                Japans problem was not one of techincal shortfalls. It simply did not develop its education system as broadly as in Europe, North America. The proportion of its population ataining advanced or basic engineering skills were far below tha of other industrial nations. The people who made it through the goal posts were as skilled as anyones engineers, perhaps even better than the Germans (duck!), but there simply too few of them.

                The same thinking was reflected in the training of navy combat pilots. A intensive nine month course (extended to twelve months in 1941) washed out all but the top 20% of starters and produced one or two thousand highly skilled airmen each year. Unfortuantly that fell far short of losses from April or May 1942, and vastly short of the numbers coming out of the US flight schools.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                  While Japan had a large merchant fleet, the proposal was to develop everything on the Korean peninsula for quicker rail shipping to the China front.
                  Leaving aside Japans cargo fleet being approximatly 40% short of the minimum needed to supply its industry... It took Japan well over fifty years to devlop the industrial infrastructure it had. Accomplishing anything close to this on the Asian mainlain requries more than a five year plan, or even a decade. If you take this concept back to early in the century, perhaps after China/Japanese war of the 1890s, or the Russian/Japanese war of a decade later then there wuld be suffcient time for industrial development typicall of the first half of the 20th Century.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Of all the nations in WWII, Japan was in the best shape

                    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                    Japans problem was not one of techincal shortfalls. It simply did not develop its education system as broadly as in Europe, North America. The proportion of its population ataining advanced or basic engineering skills were far below tha of other industrial nations. The people who made it through the goal posts were as skilled as anyones engineers, perhaps even better than the Germans (duck!), but there simply too few of them.

                    The same thinking was reflected in the training of navy combat pilots. A intensive nine month course (extended to twelve months in 1941) washed out all but the top 20% of starters and produced one or two thousand highly skilled airmen each year. Unfortuantly that fell far short of losses from April or May 1942, and vastly short of the numbers coming out of the US flight schools.
                    Upon entry into WWII no country was better prepared for war than Japan. While she may have lagged behind in some area (which I grant you would later tell) A closer colaberation between German and Japanese science and industry would have overcome this one disadvantage. While personnel shortcomings would eventually overtake Japan, her initial advantage in superior aircraft, which could be improved on by German assistance, was the diference, it was as much by luck as science that the US finally produced comperable aircraft to the Japs.
                    "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                    "One finger is all any real American needs"

                    "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Maybe Japan took a page from Germany

                      Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                      Leaving aside Japans cargo fleet being approximatly 40% short of the minimum needed to supply its industry... It took Japan well over fifty years to devlop the industrial infrastructure it had. Accomplishing anything close to this on the Asian mainlain requries more than a five year plan, or even a decade. If you take this concept back to early in the century, perhaps after China/Japanese war of the 1890s, or the Russian/Japanese war of a decade later then there wuld be suffcient time for industrial development typicall of the first half of the 20th Century.
                      And used Chinese POW's as slave labor to excelerate their war production?
                      "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                      "One finger is all any real American needs"

                      "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                        Upon entry into WWII no country was better prepared for war than Japan. While she may have lagged behind in some area (which I grant you would later tell) A closer colaberation between German and Japanese science and industry would have overcome this one disadvantage. While personnel shortcomings would eventually overtake Japan, her initial advantage in superior aircraft, which could be improved on by German assistance, was the diference, it was as much by luck as science that the US finally produced comperable aircraft to the Japs.
                        Better prepared? Japan lacked a cargo ship fleet bare able to carry half the material it needed, its aircraft production was ridiculously small comapred to its enimies, it was unable to build enough radar equipment for its ships, its warship construction program was pittifully small comared the the US alone, its industry was having to cut back on production of critical items when it went to war against the Allies, its military training programs were grossly inadaquate for replacing losses with properly trained men. You are really grasping at straws here to claim Japan as so well prepared.

                        I'd recomend reading some decent books on this, such as John Costellos 'The Pacific War 1941-45', Franks 'Guadacannal', the relevant chapters of Elliss 'Brute Force', or the recently published 'Shattered Sword', or some of the Japanese historys like Mochitsura Hashimoto's 'Sunk' or Tamichi Hara's 'Japanese Destroyer Captain'.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          The benefit of Historical Fiction, you dont have to bore the reader with dry facts

                          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                          Better prepared? Japan lacked a cargo ship fleet bare able to carry half the material it needed, its aircraft production was ridiculously small comapred to its enimies, it was unable to build enough radar equipment for its ships, its warship construction program was pittifully small comared the the US alone, its industry was having to cut back on production of critical items when it went to war against the Allies, its military training programs were grossly inadaquate for replacing losses with properly trained men. You are really grasping at straws here to claim Japan as so well prepared.

                          I'd recomend reading some decent books on this, such as John Costellos 'The Pacific War 1941-45', Franks 'Guadacannal', the relevant chapters of Elliss 'Brute Force', or the recently published 'Shattered Sword', or some of the Japanese historys like Mochitsura Hashimoto's 'Sunk' or Tamichi Hara's 'Japanese Destroyer Captain'.
                          We could also call this Quantum Reality, Butterfly effect, etc. With adjustments to chronology and adaptation of common facts a whole new world can be spun.

                          Acknowledging that Japan was void of resources instigated their expansionist program, the discovery of those resources in their own backyard (on near the Korean peninsula) coupled with German scientific exchanges are numerous.

                          Germany, Itally, and Japan each with Ahistorical mineral wealth and excelerated scientific discovery; yield Japanese Panzers, German Yamato's, and Italian V-1's etc.
                          "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                          "One finger is all any real American needs"

                          "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If you go back far enough for the discoveries to matter, I see either Japan making a go of it by itself during WWI, while everyone else is distracted.....or I see Japan already having significant inroads to these resources and therefore not needing to join the Axis powers. I forsee the Yorktown, Enterprise, Lexington, and the Pacific Battleship Squadron being sent to the Atlantic, with suitably disastrous results for the Germans. I forsee the Marines and Army beating the turd out of the Nazis with unGodly amounts of Naval Fire and Naval/Marine Aviation during Torch and Overlord, and Germany crying uncle in mid-44.

                            Maybe Japan, inland China, French Indochina, and Russia all having a couple bouts over them during the 50s, but not during WWII. Japan wouldn't need the Greater East Asia CoProsperity Sphere if they had access to the major resources they needed early on.
                            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                              We could also call this Quantum Reality, Butterfly effect, etc. With adjustments to chronology and adaptation of common facts a whole new world can be spun.

                              Acknowledging that Japan was void of resources instigated their expansionist program, the discovery of those resources in their own backyard (on near the Korean peninsula) coupled with German scientific exchanges are numerous.

                              Germany, Itally, and Japan each with Ahistorical mineral wealth and excelerated scientific discovery; yield Japanese Panzers, German Yamato's, and Italian V-1's etc.
                              How does taking 3 countries (resources or not) that never truly developed mass production on the level of the USSR or the US (and in some areas the UK) help at all? German Yamatos? Why so they could give something for the british biplanes to do after the Bismark?

                              If you give the Japanese german tanks and then go capture islands your logistics just got that much harder for what would be little gain (islands tend to stay in range of naval guns).

                              Italian V1s make about as much sense as German ones, little to none.

                              The problems these countries had were far more than simply resource constraints but with ideology, strategy, and global outlook. Simply changing one thing (dramatic or not) really doesn't matter.

                              Within one forum page this has already gone from a simple "more resources" to having to mention quantum butterflies because it appears you want someone to say "oh yeah resources, Japan would totally win" when in reality there are too many researched people here to justify it.

                              Let me help you though, if you totally ignore any semblance of reality i think equipped with enough pink tiger bunnies that Japan maybe could have won, but only with the tiger bunnies...pink ones...with wings. And fangs.

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