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Something goes right for the Japanese at Midway

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    In theory yes & yes. One common answer to this is that a naval raider strategy never works as hoped. ...
    While there are several reasons for the Allied losses in the USN zone the lack of convoys is commonly accepted as the core cause. Post war remarks by German submarine leaders focus on this "mistake". The British remarks on this during the war border on the frantic, as they tried to convince the USN of its error.

    Another factor for the Japanese would be the large fleet submarines they possesed. Those had better long range patrol chaaracteristics than the German subs. Also the Japanese would have been likely to let their subs patrol in radio silence. Not requireing daily reports radioed from the subs as Donentz did with this. The British accquired a significant advantage using signals intel techniques on these daily radio signals.

    A third factor would be the lack of Japanese subs torpedoing the USN aircraft carriers. In 1942 it was what? Three or four USN carriers torpedoed by subs? The Yorktown would have likely survived the Midway battle had the I boat not found it. Perhaps Japanese submarine doctrine was not so wrong.
    Yorktown as mentioned at Midway in June 1942
    Wasp went down Sept 17, 1942
    Saratoga hit twice by Japanese sub torpedoes in 1942, January 11 by I-16, laid up for 5 months and August 24th by I-26, laid up for 3 months. So yes they did some serious damage at that stage of the war but didn't really stand a chance of being the major knock out punch that they needed. Not to say that merchant ship attacks would be but it could have seriously hampered operations in the southwest Pacific in 1942. Look at Lundstrom's book on Fletcher for a view of just how perilous the fuel supply situation was in the southwest Pacific during the Guadalcanal operations.
    Bill

    "God is great, beer is good, and people are crazy"

    Billy Currington

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    • #47
      I believe that I once read that had the Japanese destroyed the US carriers and occupied Midway and made a concerted effort against Hawaii and won, according to MacArthur, American influence in Asia and the Pacific would not soon be regained. The fall of Australia would be soon to follow. This was based on his disatisfaction with the decision to reinforce Europe first rather than the Phillipines.

      The production figures suggest that eventually the US would have the forces but would the US and allies have the will to throw Japan out but the American people have the will to act would be the question.
      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
      George Mason
      Co-author of the Second Amendment
      during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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      • #48
        correct, the japanese submarine was vastly underrated

        Originally posted by cst784 View Post
        Yorktown as mentioned at Midway in June 1942
        Wasp went down Sept 17, 1942
        Saratoga hit twice by Japanese sub torpedoes in 1942, January 11 by I-16, laid up for 5 months and August 24th by I-26, laid up for 3 months. So yes they did some serious damage at that stage of the war but didn't really stand a chance of being the major knock out punch that they needed. Not to say that merchant ship attacks would be but it could have seriously hampered operations in the southwest Pacific in 1942. Look at Lundstrom's book on Fletcher for a view of just how perilous the fuel supply situation was in the southwest Pacific during the Guadalcanal operations.
        several of the most famous American ships being sunkor damaged were not by the vaunted and over rated Japanese Air Fleet, but by their submarines: from Saratoga and Yorktown to the Indianapolis.
        "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

        "One finger is all any real American needs"

        "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
          I believe that I once read that had the Japanese destroyed the US carriers and occupied Midway and made a concerted effort against Hawaii and won, according to MacArthur, American influence in Asia and the Pacific would not soon be regained. The fall of Australia would be soon to follow. This was based on his disatisfaction with the decision to reinforce Europe first rather than the Phillipines.

          The production figures suggest that eventually the US would have the forces but would the US and allies have the will to throw Japan out but the American people have the will to act would be the question.
          Mac & the rest did not have good enough intell to understand the Japanese logistics situation. Particularly their fuel delivery problem. Neither did they have accurate information on how the Japanese pilot replacements, particualry the naval pilots fell short of losses. Neither was the deficiency in pilot training apparent. It was not until December these things begain to be understood.

          What is clear from post war examination of Japans naval power in the late summer of 1942, is that its offensive power was on the edge of collapse. They no longer had the key assets needed to continue a stratigic offensive.

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          • #50
            And I believe the Japanese Army made it quite clear they
            could not provide or supply the ground force needed
            to invade Australia.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by The Purist View Post
              Had Midway been occupied the Japanese could not have used it to harass Hawaii. Only the longest range Betty's could reach the Hawaiian Islands and with bomb loads too light to matter. These bombers would not have had escorts and the US P-40s and P-38s would have torn them to shreds.
              .
              Midway is a Hawaiian Island.
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                And they were slaughtered like cattle by fighters. It was a flying boat for <insert expletive> sake,... neither Mavis nor Emily were going to bring Pearl harbour to its knees.
                Actually, there were several serious plans to use the Emily for serious offensive opperations. One plot involved sending them to the Gulf of Mexico to raid the soft underbelly of the US. Doenitz allocated two Milch-cow submarines to support them.

                And what's this about blanking Flying boats? Wasn't there are British flying boat so tough that the Germans called it the Porcupine? Would you call that aircraft a too?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                  Actually, there were several serious plans to use the Emily for serious offensive opperations. One plot involved sending them to the Gulf of Mexico to raid the soft underbelly of the US. Doenitz allocated two Milch-cow submarines to support them.

                  And what's this about blanking Flying boats? Wasn't there are British flying boat so tough that the Germans called it the Porcupine? Would you call that aircraft a too?
                  Yeah, the Short Sunderland. One heavily armed, bad boy of an aircraft.
                  The Japanese Emily has been regarded as the best and fastest, flying boat built during the war
                  Last edited by johnbryan; 21 Apr 09, 00:09.
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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