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Malta not Crete.

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  • #76
    A lot of fragmentary numbers posted so far. At this point I'd want to see a ship by ship count of weight loaded vs delivered to settle this. An Italian Navy summary may or may not be accurate, and like the Bradigan numbers I recall they represent a average of a unspecified number of ships. Not difficult for some statistical distortion to creep in.
    Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 14 Apr 09, 16:12.

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    • #77
      I am the owner of the blog Gooner linked. I am also the Wikipedia contributor who entered the load figures for the Beta convoy.

      I am away from Dati Statistici at the moment, but as far as I can recall, these are load numbers, not based on ships' tonnage. IOW, if it says 26%, that means that 26% of the supply tonnage (not ships' tonnage) sent to NA in November 41 arrived. I am not sure whether it means the remainder was sunk, and I doubt that, I rather think it just means the remainder did not arrive. November saw two big convoys. One was destroyed completely, the other returned to Italy. Some ships came through. This would account for the numbers. See here: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...november-1941/

      As for the idea that the Royal Navy could pick and choose what they sank, this was not the case as far as I can tell. In some cases they knew the critical item that was sent (Procida and Maritza - fuel), but in others, they had no detailed idea (the tanks of M.41/42), as I said, as far as I can tell. I do not believe that the load lists were transmitted in detail in all cases, and therefore they were not intercepted by ULTRA. But I'd be happy to be corrected on that. Preferably by someone who actually looked at the ULTRA messages, as I have done.

      All the best

      Andreas
      Last edited by AndreasB; 14 Apr 09, 16:30.

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      • #78
        I'm just going to say one thing about this;

        And the Germans thought Crete was too costly.
        2013 I'm going into West Point if it kills me. 2017 (or 2012 depending on West Point) I'm joining the Airborne if it kills me and it actually might.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by AndreasB View Post
          I am the owner of the blog Gooner linked. I am also the Wikipedia contributor who entered the load figures for the Beta convoy.

          I am away from Dati Statistici at the moment, but as far as I can recall, these are load numbers, not based on ships' tonnage. IOW, if it says 26%, that means that 26% of the supply tonnage (not ships' tonnage) sent to NA in November 41 arrived. I am not sure whether it means the remainder was sunk, and I doubt that, I rather think it just means the remainder did not arrive. November saw two big convoys. One was destroyed completely, the other returned to Italy. Some ships came through. This would account for the numbers. See here: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...november-1941/
          If you can come back with some kind of confirmation I'm sure we'd all appreciate it. In the meantime, welcome to the madhouse!
          Signing out.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by AndreasB View Post
            I am the owner of the blog Gooner linked. I am also the Wikipedia contributor who entered the load figures for the Beta convoy.

            See here: http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...november-1941/


            Andreas
            Thanks for that. & now I have another discussion board to tempt me away from usefull tasks.

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            • #81
              Don't worry Carl, I won't be posting a lot here. The blog has priority, so just follow that.

              Kevin - I'll confirm this when I get back to ye olde England next week.

              All the best

              Andreas

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Gidia View Post
                I'm just going to say one thing about this;

                And the Germans thought Crete was too costly.
                Well, see the bright side (for the Germans) - most of the losses would have been Italians in the case of Malta.

                All the best

                Andreas

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                  Ah, so you think Italian ASW was better than the British.
                  Of course it wasn't, but the Italians had the advantage that the Mediterranean is fairly shallow, enabling them to make extensive use of defensive minefields to protect their conveys, especially on the route across 'The Sicilian Narrows' between Sicily and Tunisia.
                  Last edited by redcoat; 15 Apr 09, 17:40.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by redcoat View Post
                    Of course it wasn't, but the Italians had the advantage that the Mediterranean is fairly shallow, enabling them to make extensive use of defensive minefields to protect their conveys, especially on the route across 'The Sicilian Narrows' between Sicily and Tunisia.
                    Hmmmm, not sure about that, but to put my remarks in context I originally posted this

                    "It would. I'd suggest that 'Ultra' and the cramped nature of the Med play huge parts in this. In the Atlantic the convoys could be routed in all sorts of ways meaning that a u-boat on patrol could easily miss them. In the Med with so few options as to where the convoys could go and with most of them within range of Malta and the RAF Egyptian airbases it''s not surprising that the loss rate was so high."

                    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...4&postcount=58

                    as I put forward an idea as to why the rate of shipping losses in the Med was higher than in the Atlantic.
                    Signing out.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                      If you can come back with some kind of confirmation I'm sure we'd all appreciate it. In the meantime, welcome to the madhouse!
                      Those are load figures, not ship's tonnage, but exclude civilian loads. I have added a new post with ship's tonnage lost here:

                      http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...ring-crusader/

                      All the best

                      Andreas
                      Last edited by AndreasB; 20 Apr 09, 16:06.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by AndreasB View Post
                        Those are load figures, not ship's tonnage, bit exclude civilian loads. I have added a new post with ship's tonnage lost here:

                        http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...ring-crusader/

                        All the best

                        Andreas
                        Cheers Andreas that's really interesting, especially the high tonnage sent over in November. Means that the percentage figures for losses given by Creveld and Ellis are largely correct but some of the other statistics need to be looked at again, as does the analysis.
                        Signing out.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by AndreasB View Post
                          Those are load figures, not ship's tonnage, but exclude civilian loads. I have added a new post with ship's tonnage lost here:

                          http://crusaderproject.wordpress.com...ring-crusader/

                          All the best

                          Andreas
                          Hi Andreas, good work you might want to add that some of the ships that were sent were forced to turn back - such as the Italian convoy C which departed Naples on the 20th/21st November but put into Taranto.

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                          • #88
                            My pleasure. The bit on the C convoy is already in there.

                            All the best

                            Andreas

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