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Communism Fails - Russia remains White

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  • #31
    Carl- I'm neither denying nor being ignorant of what the Nazi's did. Pre-Wansee German ethnic cleansing was being done on an ad-hoc basis with no direct central strategy. Some people were shot in groups of anything from a handful to 100,000 (Babi Yar), some were gassed with monoxide in vans, some starved, some hung, many guillotined.... in fact very similar to the USSR under Stalin.

    It was only at Wansee that things got properly organised and the industrial killing by gas started. This industrialisation is what distinguises Nazi genocide from any other.

    I should add: Massive pogroms, suppression of communism, belief that certain people are born superior, enslavement of the slavs and sending people to be worked/starved to death in concentration camps were TZARIST policies before Hitler was even born. The Tzar and Hitler are far more natural allies than Mussolini or the Japanese.
    Last edited by peter_sym; 07 Apr 09, 06:27.

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    • #32
      The February Revolution deposed the Tsarist regime and i dont see any real chance of it coming back. The people were fed up of the entire family and the 1905 revolution shows that if it hadnt succeeded it would of been a case of try and try again.

      In regards to the October Revolution failing i believe this would of led to the de-democratisation of the provisional government. Kerensky was looking to at least 'look' like Russia was going towards a Democratic way of living but due to the constant pressure of putting down Bolshevik rebellions there probably would of been a tightening of control.

      This would imho of led to a more fascist state. If not like that of Hitler or Mussolini then more like that of a Central American Banana Republic from the 80s.

      Well thats my penny!

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      • #33
        Originally posted by ShAA View Post
        Ahem, the end of the Great War saw the demise of 3 European monarchies: Russia, Germany and Austro-Hungary. And Turkey had a revolution as well. Pretty much the whole world was fed up with the monarchs and their whims that made so many people die. And "had they known" is still a hindsight.

        By the way, the Entente supported the White democratic forces against the Bolsheviks. There not only no people that would've rallied under the royal banner, but the high nobility was simply unable and unwilling to fight for power in the country. After the Czar had abdicated in the favour of his younger brother Mikhail Aleksandrovich, he immediately abdicated himself in the "favour of the Provisional Government that would prepare the country for the gathering of the Constituent Assembly". Another Grand Duke, Kirill Vladimirovich, was reported to have put a red ribbon on his coat as a show of support for the Revolution.
        I think this is the most salient point in the thread. The old monarchies were doomed. The Tsar, Kaiser and King of England were all related, along with numeous other nobles in Europe and their days were
        over.

        Sadly, I don't believe that the Russian alternative to Communism would have been either a benign monarchy nor a democracy. The cultural underpinnings just weren't here yet. They still had a nationalistic phase to experience and the times were as influenced by Nietzche as they were by hegel and Marx, so the "scientific" or "intellectual" basis for governing would still occur, IMO.
        "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
        George Mason
        Co-author of the Second Amendment
        during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
          I think this is the most salient point in the thread. The old monarchies were doomed. The Tsar, Kaiser and King of England were all related, along with numeous other nobles in Europe and their days were
          over.
          You'd better tell George V's granddaughter (Queen Elizabeth II) that because she's been ruling Britain for nearly 60 years now! They did a poll last week that reckoned 80-odd% of brits are still in favour of keeping the monarchy so their days aren't over quite yet!

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          • #35
            The monarchies of Europe are still admired in America

            How else can you explain People Magazine having a bigger following than the Bible. Any time the royals are in the spotlight it makes every tabloid and hollywood magazine here.
            "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

            "One finger is all any real American needs"

            "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

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            • #36
              Originally posted by peter_sym View Post
              You'd better tell George V's granddaughter (Queen Elizabeth II) that because she's been ruling Britain for nearly 60 years now! They did a poll last week that reckoned 80-odd% of brits are still in favour of keeping the monarchy so their days aren't over quite yet!
              Actually, the Conservative and Labour parties have been ruling Britain for since WW2 from my observation.

              Elizabeth II has been reigning but I have seen little evidence of the royals initiating any policy, foreign or domestic.
              "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
              George Mason
              Co-author of the Second Amendment
              during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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              • #37
                In its heart its still a monarchy, even with a democratic legislature

                Originally posted by Cyberknight View Post
                Actually, the Conservative and Labour parties have been ruling Britain for since WW2 from my observation.

                Elizabeth II has been reigning but I have seen little evidence of the royals initiating any policy, foreign or domestic.
                no one gets more press time the the British throne, that carries alot of weight around the world
                "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                "One finger is all any real American needs"

                "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

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                • #38

                  If they Czar had allowed an more western style Duma maybe the
                  revolution could have been avoided . But the Czar was an autocrat so that wouldn't happen. Could say Kerensky have pulled it off I doubt it
                  the revolutionaires were way too fragmented, Bolshebiks, Menshiviks ,Cadets , ands several varities of social democrats . So maybe
                  Lennin was inevitable and if he had not died in 1924 things would have been different. Leap ahead to the summer of 1941 I think Hitler would have still pushed eastwards. At that point in time the USSR would need a
                  strong leader so maybe Hitler would have made Stalin inevitable.

                  "To all who serve , have or will serve , Thank You"

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                  • #39
                    But a strong Czar would have propelled Russia to leed the world

                    Originally posted by strathnaver View Post
                    If they Czar had allowed an more western style Duma maybe the
                    revolution could have been avoided . But the Czar was an autocrat so that wouldn't happen. Could say Kerensky have pulled it off I doubt it
                    the revolutionaires were way too fragmented, Bolshebiks, Menshiviks ,Cadets , ands several varities of social democrats . So maybe
                    Lennin was inevitable and if he had not died in 1924 things would have been different. Leap ahead to the summer of 1941 I think Hitler would have still pushed eastwards. At that point in time the USSR would need a
                    strong leader so maybe Hitler would have made Stalin inevitable.
                    If not the hereditary Czar, than one of his Lieutenants filling his shoes would leed Russian into a great leap forward, first filling the power vacumn from the collapse of the Central Powers, then usurping the rise in colonialism post WWI. A strong and growing white russia, no matter who the Czar is would have gone on to bail out a collapsing Germany, far more desirable for a military minded nation, and ended forever the rise of either Communism or Nazism. Hitler and Stalin would die in obscurity and remembered only as low ranking military clerks.
                    "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                    "One finger is all any real American needs"

                    "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

                    Comment

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