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  • Communism Fails - Russia remains White

    With the failure of the "October Revolution" The Czar embarques on a program of modernization. The millions of people that would have died in the Lenin/Stalin purges create the core of a vast industrial revolution that eclipses every other nation. As leader of the largerst empire in the world, the Czar sets his sites on eastern Europe to increase his nations strength. With Germany realing from War and Depresion it is ripe for Russian expansion, and once part of the Russian Empire, Russia secures itself as the first Super Power in history.
    "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

    "One finger is all any real American needs"

    "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

  • #2
    Now that's a very interesting scenario. A failed revolution and a non-bolshevik/non-communist Russia; indeed, a right-wing, expansionist White Russia under an ultra-nationalist, ultra-monarchist regime headed by a Tsar of all the Russias. Now that's worth cogitating over in a big way! Very interesting.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Leander048 View Post
      Now that's a very interesting scenario. A failed revolution and a non-bolshevik/non-communist Russia; indeed, a right-wing, expansionist White Russia under an ultra-nationalist, ultra-monarchist regime headed by a Tsar of all the Russias. Now that's worth cogitating over in a big way! Very interesting.
      This question has cross my path a couple times before. Always a interesting and educational discussion follows.

      I suspect the fundamental economic problems endimic to Europe of the 1920s & early 1930s would hamper industrial development and military, so a expansionist Russian government would be hindered.

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      • #4
        The question is which way does it expand? Westwards you end up with the same problems Stalin had with Ukraine and the baltic states. How about continued eastwards expansion and Russia has another go at China, India or Persia?

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        • #5
          The more I think about this the further I am convinced any form of 'Russia' will be badly hampered by the economics of the 1920s & 30s. A reestablsihment of the aristocracy wont help this much as they are most likely to attempt the old habits of the 1890s thru 1914. I dont see them coming up with Soviet style Five Year industrial expansion plans, or the banking, and labor reforms that might make more effcient use of either.

          The result would be a large but poor army stuck in the experince of its last combat of 1914-192?. Efforts to 'conquor' tracts of its neighbors will have mixed results, some ending in tears.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
            This question has cross my path a couple times before. Always a interesting and educational discussion follows.

            I suspect the fundamental economic problems endimic to Europe of the 1920s & early 1930s would hamper industrial development and military, so a expansionist Russian government would be hindered.
            Oh, indeed, Carl. But economic stagnation and depression were not going to last indefinitely: Europe taken as a whole was still one of the most highly industrialised and wealthiest markets on the planet; and when the Depression eased Europe was among the first to feel the recovery. However, if we alter the scenario somewhat with a hypothetical alliance between Weimar Germany that had become a pariah in the post-First-World-War period (Bolshevik Russia and Weimar Germany were close in fact, with sections of the Weimar German armed forces secretly exercising in Russia in the 1920s in breach of Germany's Versailles-Treaty obligations), and later Nazi Germany, and an ultra-royalist ultra-nationalist regime in White Russia would have been a natural ally for National-Socialist Germany with whom she shared much indeological common ground, e.g. violent nationalism and anti-semitism. Perhaps Nazi Germany would have assisted the industrialisation and modernisation of a White Russian ally, naturally after Hitler & Co. had put Germany's house in order, I'm speaking metaphorically of course, and perhaps taken access to Russian oil and other mineral resources, and perhaps labour too, as payment. Germany could supply a vast White Russian market with finished goods of all kinds. Think of that: White Russia and Nazi Germany joined at the hip economically, politically, and militarily. And if AH had been more patient and really built up National-Socialist Germany and White Russia's industry and armed forces over a period of 10 to 20 years, who knows where it all would have gone. And if the two did fall out over some matter, such as Germany moving to expand eastwards at White Russia's expense, they may have even come to some kind of accommodation as did happen with Nazi-Soviet Nonaggression Pact in 1939. Perhaps Germany would have aided a White Russian expansionism eastwards and sought lebensraum on Russia's periphery.
            Last edited by Leander048; 03 Apr 09, 00:08.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Leander048 View Post
              Oh, indeed, Carl. But economic stagnation and depression were not going to last indefinitely:
              Certainly not indefintily, but thats not what I see. Historically The economic staganation dragged on into the 1930s with a few years of growth alternating with various crisis. The buisness leaders, bankers, and various governments had a difficult time coping with the large scale changes in global economics, many of which had been underway before 1914. A new generation of business leader seem to have been getting a grip on things in the mid 1930s. I dont see a group of retro Rusian aristocrats adapting any faster than anyone else during those years.

              Originally posted by Leander048 View Post
              However, if we alter the scenario somewhat with a hypothetical alliance between Weimar Germany that had become a pariah in the post-First-World-War period (Bolshevik Russia and Weimar Germany were close in fact, with sections of the Weimar German armed forces secretly exercising in Russia in the 1920s in breach of Germany's Versailles-Treaty obligations), and later Nazi Germany, and an ultra-royalist ultra-nationalist regime in White Russia would have been a natural ally for National-Socialist Germany with whom she shared much indeological common ground, e.g. violent nationalism and anti-semitism. Perhaps Nazi Germany would have assisted the industrialisation and modernisation of a White Russian ally, naturally after Hitler & Co. had put Germany's house in order, I'm speaking metaphorically of course, and perhaps taken access to Russian oil and other mineral resources, and perhaps labour too, as payment. Germany could supply a vast White Russian market with finished goods of all kinds. Think of that: White Russia and Nazi Germany joined at the hip economically, politically, and militarily. And if AH had been more patient and really built up National-Socialist Germany and White Russia's industry and armed forces over a period of 10 to 20 years, who knows where it all would have gone. And if the two did fall out over some matter, such as Germany moving to expand eastwards at White Russia's expense, they may have even come to some kind of accommodation as did happen with Nazi-Soviet Nonaggression Pact in 1939. Perhaps Germany would have aided a White Russian expansionism eastwards and sought lebensraum on Russia's periphery.
              A alliance between a Russian aristocratic government, or any other, and nazi Germany runs up against Hitlers racial beliefs. Those lay at the core of his long term policys. That is the enslavement & extermination of the inferior races. More particularly the replacement of the Slavic peoples with a "Aryan" population. His rants about Jewish dominated Bolshiviks and their Slavic untermench would be replaced by rants about Jewish aristocrats and their Slavic untermench. Removing the Communist bogeyman from Russia would not alter the core racial beliefs of the nazis.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                A alliance between a Russian aristocratic government, or any other, and nazi Germany runs up against Hitlers racial beliefs. Those lay at the core of his long term policys. That is the enslavement & extermination of the inferior races. More particularly the replacement of the Slavic peoples with a "Aryan" population. His rants about Jewish dominated Bolshiviks and their Slavic untermench would be replaced by rants about Jewish aristocrats and their Slavic untermench. Removing the Communist bogeyman from Russia would not alter the core racial beliefs of the nazis.
                Not neccessarily: the Tzar was the cousin of the Kaiser and George V. All have more German blood in their veins than Russian or English. Remember too that Kiev was founded by the Vikings (The word Russia comes from 'Rus' or 'Rower') and many Russian aristocrats could describe themselves as Nordic. There were brutal pograms under the Tzar (which is why so many Russian jews went to america) so the Tzar and Hitler would be in total antisemitic agreement.

                Of course without communism in the first place would there even be a nazi party? I don't think there would. The various revolutionary attempts in Germany post ww1 caused the chaos that allowed Hitler to gain power.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                  With the failure of the "October Revolution" The Czar embarques on a program of modernization. The millions of people that would have died in the Lenin/Stalin purges create the core of a vast industrial revolution that eclipses every other nation. As leader of the largerst empire in the world, the Czar sets his sites on eastern Europe to increase his nations strength. With Germany realing from War and Depresion it is ripe for Russian expansion, and once part of the Russian Empire, Russia secures itself as the first Super Power in history.
                  i thought the the allies during the cold war was trying to prevent Russia from coqueing europe?was not the cold war was over? now russia is going to take over europe?i don't want russia being world power,infact i don't wanyt any country being worlsd power. i am sick of being ruled by men!

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                  • #10
                    Hi Heidi, the cold war was to stop COMMUNIST Russia conquering Europe. Do you think the US would care if a free market loving Russian controlled europe? Hardly. You only have to look at all the crappy, but pro-US regimes they've supported, especially in Central America, to work that answer out.

                    In the 20's and 30's the US was isolationist. They wouldn't have intervened in Europe.

                    Remember this is ALTERNATIVE timelines. The discussion is about a world that could have been- its sci fi if you like.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                      With the failure of the "October Revolution" The Czar embarques on a program of modernization. The millions of people that would have died in the Lenin/Stalin purges create the core of a vast industrial revolution that eclipses every other nation. As leader of the largerst empire in the world, the Czar sets his sites on eastern Europe to increase his nations strength. With Germany realing from War and Depresion it is ripe for Russian expansion, and once part of the Russian Empire, Russia secures itself as the first Super Power in history.
                      Well, at the time of the October Revolution the Czar was already under home arrest in Tobolsk, and actually there was but a tiny bunch of people that would've striven to bring him back to the throne. The only viable alternative to the Bolsheviks in that timeframe was Kornilov who attmpted a revolt in August 1917, that could've ended in a military dictatorship.

                      As for the Superpower status, it has to be taken into account what means the Bolsheviks used to achieve their goal of making Russia an industrial power and whether these means would've been acceptable for even an authoritarian government. The millions that died under Stalin mostly used as slave labour exactly for the industrialisation you are writing about.
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                      • #12
                        A new Czar would ascend

                        With the declining health of the Heir to the current Czar; and White & Red russia still battling in the streets, a power vacumn could elevate a new Leader to the Throne. It is even possible the Rasputin, riding his Cult status and position with the Czarina could have conducted a coup and taken over.
                        "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                        "One finger is all any real American needs"

                        "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by peter_sym View Post
                          Not neccessarily: the Tzar was the cousin of the Kaiser and George V. All have more German blood in their veins than Russian or English. Remember too that Kiev was founded by the Vikings (The word Russia comes from 'Rus' or 'Rower') and many Russian aristocrats could describe themselves as Nordic. There were brutal pograms under the Tzar (which is why so many Russian jews went to america) so the Tzar and Hitler would be in total antisemitic agreement.
                          I think you are grossly misunderstanding Hitlers racial views, and those of the nazi membership in general. From early on Hitlers core goal was the subjugation/extermination of the Slavic untermench and their replacement with a Aryan population. A second factor here is Hitler despised the aristocracy. He thought them a anchronism, a useless remant from a earlier era. His refrences to 'to much Jewish blood in the nobility' suggests his views on this subject.

                          From a different direction there would be competition for a alliance with a Russian Empire. In 1939 the USSR France and Britian attempted to negotiate a anti German alliance. This failed for several reasons, one of which was the anti communist views of Chamberlain & his inner circle. Another was the suspicion of the Soviet leaders. With a non communist government of Russia at least one significant obstacle will be removed. It is possible that France would be able to arraign a alliance with this Russian empire much earlier in the 1920 for similar reasons.

                          Originally posted by peter_sym View Post
                          Of course without communism in the first place would there even be a nazi party? I don't think there would. The various revolutionary attempts in Germany post ww1 caused the chaos that allowed Hitler to gain power.
                          Yes removing the communist bogeyman hinders the nazi scare tactics. Perhaps that would undercut their value as a alternative to a susposed 'Red Takeover' in the elections. The social disorder of the early 1920s would have occured anyway. The naval mutinies, the Communist government in Bavaria, and the Spartacist revolt in Berlin were not dependant on events in Russia. Neither was the brief communist or socialist goverment in Hungary. They occured concurrent to the revolution in Russia and were part of a general socialist/communist surge in popularity across the world between 1917 & 1924. So maybe Hitler cant bring his party to power without a Red Menace. Still the fundamental platform of his movement was racial and a important secondary was the restoration of Germany as a powerfull nation, neither of which required a communist threat for validation.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ShAA View Post
                            Well, at the time of the October Revolution the Czar was already under home arrest in Tobolsk, and actually there was but a tiny bunch of people that would've striven to bring him back to the throne. The only viable alternative to the Bolsheviks in that timeframe was Kornilov who attmpted a revolt in August 1917, that could've ended in a military dictatorship.
                            Yes to make this WI fly you have to reach back earlier. Perhaps a Czar with a stronger personality avoiding imprisonment and retaining a loyal portion of the army. Or alternatly a group of aristocatcs operating more effectively than Admiral Kolchek and the others.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by peter_sym View Post
                              Hi Heidi, the cold war was to stop COMMUNIST Russia conquering Europe. Do you think the US would care if a free market loving Russian controlled europe? Hardly. You only have to look at all the crappy, but pro-US regimes they've supported, especially in Central America, to work that answer out.

                              In the 20's and 30's the US was isolationist. They wouldn't have intervened in Europe.

                              Remember this is ALTERNATIVE timelines. The discussion is about a world that could have been- its sci fi if you like.
                              i just realised it is a what if thread.i am soory.

                              well,in my veiws Russia was in power after the cold war,we all be living badly right now.(we all be doomed).
                              Just thank god that good won over eveil this time around

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