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India/Pakistan 2009

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  • Slim
    replied
    India wants to really avoid a conflict with Pakistan because India rather deal with astable but hostile Pak than an unstable uncontrollable Pak swarming with nuclear capable jehadis with no one to control them. However whenever Pak sponsored terrosist incidents like the one in mumbai or the one on the Indian Parliment occur domestic pressure does build up on the Indian govt to retaliate and once and for all finish Pak.

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  • Slim
    replied
    Originally posted by lakechampainer View Post
    What is the current situation and what are the current aims of the Indo-Pakistani conflict? I found the previous posts from the spring very interesting. .


    In the event of a conflict with Pakistan Indian Army Doctrine calls for rapid shallow thrusts into Pakisthan along multiple fronts- just enough for things to stir up and expose the Pakisthani mech forces and then a combined effort by the army -navy-airforce to annhillate them . There would be no deep intrusions into Pak because that raises the possibility of Paki nuclear retaliation. India does not want to threaten Pak too much because if Pak were to fall apart the resultant unstability would spawn tens of millions of new jehadis and that is one scenario that is a true Indian nightmare.

    Vs China at the moment Indian doctrine is not very clear. All I can say is India is raising 2-3 offensive mountain divisions with an integral light tank battalion, a mountain artillery brigade and more Helo assets than any other divison in the Indian army. But this plan will take atleast 3-5 years to mature because the artillery component of these divisons is still very far from being formed.

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    Meh true, but I'm sure the West is making an effort to keep the boarders secure.

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    Yes but how are they getting there? Who doesn't matter, fighting the who is harder than fighting the how? These weapons certainly aren't landing at Kabul Airport. And then being shipped into the mountains. They arrive in Pakistan then get shipped into the mountains.

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    While the Indians cannot infiltrate, the Pakistanis are hardly doing a good job of that. At least India might be able to get the Taliban/Al-queda out of Pakistan(They currently control Karachi the biggest city). I think that it would deal a good blow to the terrorists, seeing how all their supplies are probably smuggled(or not smuggled seeing how Karachi is filled with Taliban.) into Pakistan and then into the mountains. How else would they be getting weapons and ammo.

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  • Cicero
    replied
    I should say that with Pakistan, the question could be asked, "with friends like these, who needs enemies?"

    Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
    How else would they be getting weapons and ammo.
    Iran...or the muslim states of crap-lakistan.

    Let me take a look at a map, but last time I checked, Iran shares a long ass border with Afghanistan and the craplakistan countries to the north are already in the mountains.
    I will probably delete this tomorow cause I'm tired and it is going off topic
    Last edited by Cicero; 05 Sep 09, 13:07.

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  • Cicero
    replied
    Originally posted by Destroyer25 View Post
    I lol'd.
    Yeah, I was pleased when I came across the article after reading this thread today. I think you over-estimate Western influence among the regional super-powers of Central Asia. The US has been trying to increase it's military relations with India over the last few years, even inviting them to join in exercises at Red Flag. But as for being a better ally in the War on Terror, the problem with the Indians is that the Indians cannot infiltrate Al-queda or the local warlords in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Pakistan can, and they can deal with them. But our problem is that they (Pakistan) deal with them at their leisure and turn their backs on us whenever they please. As allies, they have appeared inconsistent at best.

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    I lol'd.

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  • Cicero
    replied
    Ah-ha! This was a front-page cover story on today's New York Times:
    China and India Dispute Enclave on Edge of Tibet
    This is perhaps the most militarized Buddhist enclave in the world...


    Link 1
    Link 2

    "but is also the site of a huge Indian military buildup. Convoys of army trucks haul howitzers along rutted mountain roads. Soldiers drill in muddy fields. Military bases appear every half-mile in the countryside, with watchtowers rising behind concertina wire."
    "“The Chinese Army has a big deployment at the border, at Bumla,...That’s why we’re here.”

    The Chinese Army occupied Tawang briefly in 1962, during a war with India fought over this and other territories along the 2,521-mile border.

    More than 3,100 Indian soldiers and 700 Chinese soldiers were killed and thousands wounded in the border war. Memorials here highlighting Chinese aggression in Tawang are big draws for Indian tourists.

    “The entire border is disputed,” said Ma Jiali, an India scholar at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, a government-supported research group in Beijing. “This problem hasn’t been solved, and it’s a huge barrier to China-India relations.”

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  • Destroyer25
    replied
    I agree, the Russians are exporting T-90s to India. And the US would definitely like to have India in control of Pakistan because I think that the US believes that India would be a better ally to have in the war against terror. Pakistan is getting pwned by the Taliban. Pakistan is weak, India is much stronger, China would not dare invade India. They know that the west would immediately say GTFO or we kill you. Large scale wars between countries are not justified unless the US wants it to be.

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  • lakechampainer
    replied
    Current Strategies of India and Pakistan

    What is the current situation and what are the current aims of the Indo-Pakistani conflict? I found the previous posts from the spring very interesting. My feelings are that the basic strategies are as follows:

    India: They are basically biding their time. They feel they will just grow stronger relative to Pakistan. I agree with the poster who feels the Indian ground objective would limited, like Egypt in 1973. They are building up their Air Force to be able to make deep strikes on targets they consider crucial to the regime. As several posters noted, they can outflank the Pakistani Navy and attack from the South.

    Pakistan: They are in a much weaker position because of conflict with the Taliban and because of the much smaller population. Their intelligence services probably do attempt to wreak havoc in India, with its much less homogeneous population. They probably realize they will only get weaker relative to India, and there are probably elements who want to "strike while they have a chance". I suspect their forces are more special forces heavy than those of India.

    China: I don't think China would attempt to get directly involved in a war with India, due to geography as several posters noted. If they did at all I agree it would be a naval situation, Chinese subs threatening India power projection in Pakistan.

    Russia: I suspect they are aiding India, for the money, to test their own weapons and intelligence systems, and most of all because India is the long-term counterweight to China.

    United States: I feel they are aiding India more than they let on.

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  • Slim
    replied
    Originally posted by IDonT4 View Post
    That begs the question, does China consider India as an enemy? OR does it pretend to be to get what it wants from Pakistan, namely the port of Gwadar to help secure its oil access?

    China will not spend its blood and treasure to fight India for the sake of Pakistan. If India does not threaten its oil supplies, it will stay neutral.

    What you are proposing is a full scale Chinese military intervention on behalf of Pakistan - which is expensive. Will not happen due to the excess cost such as: lower economic growth, desruption of Chinese trade, etc.


    When the British ruled India they agreed on an Indo-Chinese Boundry called the Mac-mohan line with the then Chinese Emperor. Communist China does not recognize this boundry while India accepts it. After Communist China conquered Tibet they claimed areas within the Indian side of this Macmohan line and this led to the border war of 1962. China still claims significant terriotery currently under India. This is the prime reason for the enimity.

    In todays context it appears unlikely the Chinese would take very high risk for Pakistan.
    But if an opprtunity presents itself such that the disputed regions become easy pickings than it is quite likely China may not miss it.

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  • Slim
    replied
    Originally posted by TacCovert4 View Post
    They don't need to be but so fast. Armor will only be good on the defensive, as you're talking about the most forbidding mountains on eath.





    Odds of China blitzing through they Himalayas to anywhere. 1-157638. Guerillas would be a part of both fronts, remember the Tibetans? I'll bet a war with India would be the catalyst to start a full scale guerilla campaign all in China's Himalayan border.



    Russia wouldn't help China unless India threatened to Nuke Russia. Even then I'm skeptical. Whatever weakens China's military is good for Russian National Security.


    Good points.

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  • Slim
    replied
    [QUOTE=TacCovert4;1164106]you could get armor through the mountains, but at an atrociously slow rate. Especially if India made it's attack into pakistan during the winter or spring thaw. Sheer cliffs are a little more forboding than a hilly forest.[/QUOTE]

    And to top it off most of the Himalayas turn into a frozen tundra during winter.

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  • Slim
    replied
    Originally posted by Cicero View Post
    thank you, I'll go back over that. Of course if you posted that bit about the some part being impassable for armor, I thought that sounded very much like what the French and English said about the Ardennes Forest.


    Hi Cicero,

    The Himalayas are an entirely different story. And the Indians have no illusions about Chinese might. They have a bad habit of getting complacent no doubt, but they will not let the chinese do an ardennes to them.

    Let me tell you this. Indians know that the Chinese are mightier than them. Indians also know that Pakistan is inferior to them. Why then would India deploy less than 10 percent of its total armour against the Chinese, espescially after they got such a licking at the hands of the chinese in 1962, and they have fought 3 major wars with the Pakisthanis and always come out ahead and still deploy 90 percent of theior armor/mech forces aginst them.

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