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  • #61
    Originally posted by The Purist View Post

    The 32 million deaths quoted as a result of the famine in the Ukraine and elsewhere in the 1930s is out by at least a factor 7 or 8 if not higher. It is cold war myth bordering on propaganda and a simple search of the threads in these forums will lead readers to links where modern research examines and explains the reality of the how and the why.
    And You don't see anything strange at the fact ,that during such terrible famine the government spent money and sources on building tanks ?
    Between 1929 and 1933 Russia built about 7 500 tanks , no matter how many people died 35 mlns or only ( ! ) 7 to 8 mlns .Who need new tanks when people are dying from hunger ?
    BTW There were no famine on Polish part of Ukraine at that time ,strange why ?
    Last edited by Bartek; 24 Jan 10, 04:39.
    Guerrero contra marxismo

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Bartek View Post
      Typical russian way of lies , to imput other people words and things that they have never done .

      You hadn't answer my question about Bieshanov, Solonin , Bunicz ,are they the members of international plot against Russia too ? Just like Suvorow .
      Well, you've answered the question yourself. You don't really need me for this conversation. Bye.
      www.histours.ru

      Siege of Leningrad battlefield tour

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Bartek View Post
        And You don't see anything strange at the fact ,that during such terrible famine the government spent money and sources on building tanks ?
        Between 1929 and 1933 Russia built about 7 500 tanks , no matter how many people died 35 mlns or only ( ! ) 7 to 8 mlns .Who need new tanks when people are dying from hunger ?
        BTW There were no famine on Polish part of Ukraine at that time ,strange why ?
        Would not building those tanks have made any difference, do you think?
        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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        • #64
          Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
          Would not building those tanks have made any difference, do you think?
          Propably not , but what a kind of sick rulers were building tanks when their people were dying from hunger ?
          Of course if we bet that those tanks were to defend communists' tyrany against the freedom revolution then everything is quite clear and reasonable .
          Guerrero contra marxismo

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          • #65
            Originally posted by ShAA View Post
            Well, you've answered the question yourself. You don't really need me for this conversation. Bye.
            Bla,bla ,bla , typical Russian argument :"At USA Republican party members are beating the Negros " .
            Guerrero contra marxismo

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            • #66
              Originally posted by The Purist View Post
              The 32 million deaths quoted as a result of the famine in the Ukraine and elsewhere in the 1930s is out by at least a factor 7 or 8 if not higher. It is cold war myth bordering on propaganda and a simple search of the threads in these forums will lead readers to links where modern research examines and explains the reality of the how and the why.
              Why are You so sure that the newest research are so sure ,so trusted ,much more better than the elder ones ?
              Guerrero contra marxismo

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                "Propably not , but what a kind of sick rulers were building tanks when their people were dying from hunger ?"
                The kind who feared invasion from the West?


                Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                "Of course if we bet that those tanks were to defend communists' tyrany against the freedom revolution then everything is quite clear and reasonable ."
                You mean to suppress counter-revolution from within? Not to deal with external threats (real or perceived)? The threat from Nazism turned out to be real enough though, I think.
                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                  The threat from Nazism turned out to be real enough though, I think.
                  Nazis threat from the year 1929 till 1933 ? Even at 1934 Reichswehr got 100 000 men without tanks and combat planes .
                  Guerrero contra marxismo

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                    Nazis threat from the year 1929 till 1933 ? Even at 1934 Reichswehr got 100 000 men without tanks and combat planes .
                    No, I meant they turned out to be a real threat later. Not much later, though. It was almost as if the worst fears had been realized. Too bad for the Soviets that their armed forces, while being unquestionably very large, were in such poor shape. Not least their decrepit tank fleet.
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                      No, I meant they turned out to be a real threat later. Not much later, though. It was almost as if the worst fears had been realized. Too bad for the Soviets that their armed forces, while being unquestionably very large, were in such poor shape. Not least their decrepit tank fleet.
                      Ouuu !
                      The Great Teacher and Prophet comrade Stalin anticipated at 1929 that at 1933 Adolf Hitler would won the elections and would start the World War 2nd at 1939 , he also foreseen that at 1939 Poland and Finland would attack USSR , at 1940 the same would do Latwia, Lithuania,Estonia and Romania .But he appeared unable to foresee that at 1941 Hilter would attack USSR .

                      Very funny indeed ,but totaly unconvince
                      Guerrero contra marxismo

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                        Ouuu !
                        The Great Teacher and Prophet comrade Stalin anticipated at 1929 that at 1933 Adolf Hitler would won the elections and would start the World War 2nd at 1939 , he also foreseen that at 1939 Poland and Finland would attack USSR , at 1940 the same would do Latwia, Lithuania,Estonia and Romania .But he appeared unable to foresee that at 1941 Hilter would attack USSR .

                        Very funny indeed ,but totaly unconvince
                        Now you're just being funny yourself.

                        Obviously, Stalin would not have been able to foresee precisely how events would unfold. However, I believe he did have a general fear, some would say paranoia, about a major attack from the West at some stage in the not too distant future. Building up a large force would be the hedge against such an attack. But to be fully ready would take time. When the Germans attacked in June 1941, he was taken by surprise not because he had failed to foresee the possibility of an attack happening at all, but because he had convinced himself it would not happen at that time.

                        Timing is everything.
                        "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Bartek
                          And You don't see anything strange at the fact ,that during such terrible famine the government spent money and sources on building tanks ?
                          None whatsoever. There is no way to turn metal into wheat so it made no difference. The industrialisation plans did provide jobs and helped the economy though.


                          Originally posted by Bartek
                          ...BTW There were no famine on Polish part of Ukraine at that time ,strange why ?
                          So you have not read the research. There may not have been famine in Galcia but there was famine in Khazakstan and other small republics in the south. Food distribution was poor, some forecasts were incorrect and crops failed amongst a drought. It all contributed to the famine but the effects of which, as the modern researchers have discovered, were not nearly so dramatic as once thought. One thing the research does call into question was whether the famine was "man made" or was it a confluence of events both natural and man made that led to the tragedy.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            None whatsoever. There is no way to turn metal into wheat so it made no difference. The industrialisation plans did provide jobs and helped the economy though.




                            So you have not read the research. There may not have been famine in Galcia but there was famine in Khazakstan and other small republics in the south. Food distribution was poor, some forecasts were incorrect and crops failed amongst a drought. It all contributed to the famine but the effects of which, as the modern researchers have discovered, were not nearly so dramatic as once thought. One thing the research does call into question was whether the famine was "man made" or was it a confluence of events both natural and man made that led to the tragedy.
                            So You think that Russians who were talking lies about the famine at 30's suddenly start to tell the truth ? It could be true ,but if someone was telling lies through more then 70 years won't expect then everyone will immediately believe in his newest version .

                            BTW We got a very accurate,modern researches about global warming and pandemy of swine flu lately ,and what had happened ? Of course except some guys who earned a quite good money on global histeria .
                            Guerrero contra marxismo

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                              Now you're just being funny yourself.

                              Obviously, Stalin would not have been able to foresee precisely how events would unfold. However, I believe he did have a general fear, some would say paranoia, about a major attack from the West at some stage in the not too distant future. Building up a large force would be the hedge against such an attack. But to be fully ready would take time. When the Germans attacked in June 1941, he was taken by surprise not because he had failed to foresee the possibility of an attack happening at all, but because
                              ... but because Stalin was sure that Hitler was a typical "usefull idiot" ,for that reason he was "feeding " the III Reich from September 1939 , waiting till Adolf would knock down England ,then USSR would claimed itself as liberator of the nations from the nazis' yoke .
                              France had fallen too early for Stalin's plans , "Seeloewe" plan was left ,and that's why Stalin appeared suprised at June 22nd .
                              Guerrero contra marxismo

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Bartek View Post
                                ... but because Stalin was sure that Hitler was a typical "usefull idiot" ,for that reason he was "feeding " the III Reich from September 1939 , waiting till Adolf would knock down England ,then USSR would claimed itself as liberator of the nations from the nazis' yoke .
                                France had fallen too early for Stalin's plans , "Seeloewe" plan was left ,and that's why Stalin appeared suprised at June 22nd .
                                Yes, the conflict between the Western powers was over all too quickly for Stalin's liking. He was hoping for more time. However, despite the rapidity and near completeness of the German victories, Stalin still did not expect Hitler to attack as early as he did. He thought he should be safe for at least another year or two. That is where he was wrong as we know, and the size of his force was of little help, given its poor condition and state of unreadiness. But as events turned out, he was right to fear a major attack from the west, even if his thinking was paranoid to begin with and did not involve any 'great vision'. Building up his industrial capacity as a high priority was the right thing to do, and IMHO contributed in no small way to saving the Soviet Union from destruction in WW2.
                                Last edited by panther3485; 26 Jan 10, 05:20.
                                "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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