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WWII - German victors? Don't frag the n00b.

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  • #76
    Originally posted by peter_sym View Post
    Equally the nazi reliance on slave labour rather than mobilising women as the allies did cost them huge amounts of productivity.
    That myth is debunked in Tooze. Pre-war Germany had a high percentage of female participation in the workforce. There wasn't that much slack in female employment available to be used in the economy.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
      ... in the Ukraine..were initially happy to see the Nazis..Then the SS turned up..
      that's a myth; ..the initial "happiness" was being staged by the Nazis every time they entered a town or settlement; but if it worked, then no SS atrocities would have been needed to keep the situation in check.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by peter_sym View Post
        Sadly this is the sort of bollocks Hitler believed too...
        sorry, i was only judging by the myths you do believe in; ..i was seeing it like this: "you think it's ok to welcome Nazis if they invade your country? ..ah, that maybe because you and Germans belong to the same ethnic group..."

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        • #79
          Originally posted by stalin View Post
          that's a myth; ..the initial "happiness" was being staged by the Nazis every time they entered a town or settlement; but if it worked, then no SS atrocities would have been needed to keep the situation in check.
          You forget the fact that it would've worked if the SS hadn't have been the SS. So that argument is flawed. The "liberated" Baltic States (and yes they were occupied by Stalin and not invited despite your continued belief in Santa Claus)didnt know what the SS were going to do till it was too late.
          I'm going to use the usual line I use when your trying once again to explain the existence of Santa Claus. Yes whatever you say. Everybody loved cuddly Uncle Joe.

          P.S Using ethnic comments to try and debunk comments made others really is beneath you and you should know better.
          Last edited by copenhagen; 16 Feb 09, 08:18.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
            That myth is debunked in Tooze. Pre-war Germany had a high percentage of female participation in the workforce. There wasn't that much slack in female employment available to be used in the economy.
            Yes, the large peasant agrarian sector of the economy kept women working in the fields. By comparison British agriculture was far more capital intensive allowing a greater percentage of the female population to be employed in the factories. It's not so much a myth as a failure to interpret statistics correctly.
            Signing out.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
              You forget the fact that it would've worked if the SS hadnt have been the SS. So that argument is flawed. The "liberated" Baltic States (and yes they were occupied by Stalin and not invited despite your continued belief in Sanat Claus)didnt know what the SS were going to do till it was too late.
              Given that the information regarding the enthusiasm with which the Ukrainians greeted their German 'liberators' stems largely from the same sources that blame the Wehrmacht's defeat in the East on Hitler's meddling and the overwhelming 'Red Tide' I think we need to be careful. That there was a significant minority of Ukrainians who welcomed 'liberation' is clear. The majority seem to have regarded it with indifference. Whether the Germans could have exploited this is questionable but their ideologically driven activities rendered this question moot.
              Signing out.

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              • #82
                You mentioned the Ukraine which I was including but I also mentioned the Baltic States. Now what was the attitude there at the outset before "ideologically driven activities rendered this question moot.?" Anti Soviet sentiment was quite high if memory serves.
                Last edited by copenhagen; 16 Feb 09, 08:27.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                  You mentioned the Ukraine which I was including but I also mentioned the Baltic States. Now what was the attitude there at the outset? Anti Soviet sentiment was quite high if memory serves.
                  Afaik it was pretty similar. After having large armies move back and forth across their land the populace of small nations seem to become indifferent to whoever their occupiers are. To make a sweeping generalisation, had the Germans not applied their racial and political ideology with such zeal they might have had an easier time of it in the Ukraine and the Baltic States. I've seen nothing recently that would suggest that they could have exploited anti-Soviet sentiment in any significant fashion, certainly not to tip the scales in their favour in 1941-2 (when they still had some chance of k-o-ing the USSR).
                  Signing out.

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                  • #84
                    One could argue they would have had more secure supply lines. I'm not one of the "if only" Barbarossa crowd as the Germans were screwed by the beginning of 1942 anyway in my opinion. To be honest my argument is about this issue about oh these states were so desperate to be in the USSR particularly in the case of Estonia and hated the Germans actually coming in. Some were quite happy for the Germans to kick the Soviets out. Of course this would turn very sour.

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                    • #85
                      When one considers the changes the people of the Baltic States had endured since 1916 it would be a surprise if any enthusiasm felt at their 'liberation' by the Germans didn't dwindle swiftly. Even if the Germans had treated the populations with some respect they were fighting a war and quickly would have taken steps to appropriate any useful resources to maintain their armed forces. As in Western Europe the local economies would have broken down and, at best, sullen acquiescence to German rule would probably have been the order of the day. The more I look at it the more it becomes clear that IF Germany was going to defeat the USSR they had to do it off their own backs and do it very quickly.
                      Signing out.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                        When one considers the changes the people of the Baltic States had endured since 1916 it would be a surprise if any enthusiasm felt at their 'liberation' by the Germans didn't dwindle swiftly. Even if the Germans had treated the populations with some respect they were fighting a war and quickly would have taken steps to appropriate any useful resources to maintain their armed forces. As in Western Europe the local economies would have broken down and, at best, sullen acquiescence to German rule would probably have been the order of the day. The more I look at it the more it becomes clear that IF Germany was going to defeat the USSR they had to do it off their own backs and do it very quickly.
                        As I said screwed by 1942.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                          As I said screwed by 1942.
                          Or October 1941 really. The schedule they set themselves for 'Barbarossa' may have been hopelessly optimistic and based on poor intel but it had to be achieved or they, as you so succinctly put it, were screwed!
                          Signing out.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by stalin View Post
                            sorry, i was only judging by the myths you do believe in; ..i was seeing it like this: "you think it's ok to welcome Nazis if they invade your country? ..ah, that maybe because you and Germans belong to the same ethnic group..."
                            If you're read my posts rather than repeating Stalinist propaganda you may have noted the part when I said I have Viking blood. I'm a direct descendant of the same people who built Kiev. Your country even takes it name 'Rus' from 'Rower'.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                              When one considers the changes the people of the Baltic States had endured since 1916 it would be a surprise if any enthusiasm felt at their 'liberation' by the Germans didn't dwindle swiftly. Even if the Germans had treated the populations with some respect they were fighting a war and quickly would have taken steps to appropriate any useful resources to maintain their armed forces. As in Western Europe the local economies would have broken down and, at best, sullen acquiescence to German rule would probably have been the order of the day. The more I look at it the more it becomes clear that IF Germany was going to defeat the USSR they had to do it off their own backs and do it very quickly.
                              In Estland the Germans did treat the local population with some respect (note some). The initial enthusiasm produced them both manpower and supplies. The enthusiasm died down rather quickly when the population realized that the Germans didn't come as liberators, but to continue Stalin's policies, just in a slightly milder form. This realization meant that suddenly German mobilisation drives fell short and supplies became more hard to get (i.e. when in the beginning people readily accepted IOUs from Wehrmacht, then suddenly the goods were nowhere to be found and Wehrmacht lacked the manpower for more thorough appropriations. The enthusiasm kicked back in - producing Germans again both more manpower and supplies - when it became clear Hitler would lose the war, but not where the borders between Germany and Russia would be when this happened and people still believed in the declarations made by the Allies in the beginning of the war that the war would not affect the status of nations prior to war.

                              The above of course is an example of a very small country. Given the initial reaction in Ukraine was not that different, but the resources there much greater, a German attitude-reversal there could have made a significant difference in the outcome. It would also have made it that much harder for the commissars to whip up morale.

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                              • #90
                                They still recruited several SS divisions from the baltic states though including the 15th (latvian) 19th (latvian) and 20th (estonian). You also had plenty from that part of the world in some of the other divisions (notably the 11th nordland)

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