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  • #46
    And? it was still Hitler who gave the order. It was still Forces under German control, how can it be Stalins fault?
    “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

    Max Sterner

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    • #47
      one thing for sure. US and UK troops never fought against odds like the ones they'd face in 1945 - a well supplied, well trained, well equipped Red army, that can for a while enjoy strong air presence with deadly air-to-ground assets and massive firepower in armor but mostly artillery.

      US and UK troops never never faced the hell the germans received form the US and Soviet forces. in this scenario, they' be quickly scared Sh*tless from beeing on the receiving end of a soviet artillery regiment or a Katiusha's barrage... and without the years of experience the Germans gained on the Ostfront. the boys from london, New York or Chicago would know hell - at least in the first weeks. (and add that to the low morale of not going home, etc.).

      I see fast surrender and outright fraternisation.... and fast collapse of the fronts and supply systems.

      ---

      as for France (and Italy), I think the communists would be well beyond disruption, they'd clearly take arms and fight in every city, every region and take large parts of those countries tired of war under control.

      Communist forces were never as strong as they were in 1945. nevre again after that would they have a chance to win so easyly - despite the two nukes potentially dropped somewhere on russia instead of Japan....

      ---

      the true asset of the US/UK is their strategic bombers and strong fighter quality - assuming pilots follow orders and fight another enemy...
      sure, they can carpet bomb some areas of grouping of red forces (assuming they can recon well enough for that) and sure the red army supply would suffer tremendously from the western Allied air attacks... but such a campaign would be very fast in my opinion, perhaps only a few weeks before the Soviets reach the Rhine, enter North Italy, and get into Benelux. and the feeding over captured supplies is a strong Soviet capacity.

      nah, Trumann was a wise man, he knew Roosevelt had already given Stalin more than he bargained for and Stalin knew he had to digest Eastern Europe first and had to rebuild Russia before any more follies.... so Stalin would never fight a war and his grip on any "mistake" was strong.

      such a war could only start if started by the west.
      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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      • #48


        The opinion of the man seated on the left following a visit in early 1947, him being a Hero of the Soviet Union and all, is worth considering.

        "I was left with the impression that the Russians were worn out; it was not just war weariness; I was told that the whole nation was tired. All-in-all, I reckoned that Russia was quite unfit to take part in a world war against a strong combination of allied nations, and that she knew this very well. She needed a long period of peace in which to recover. I came to the conclusion that she would watch the situation carefully and ensure she did not 'overstep the mark' anywhere by careless diplomacy and thus start another war, which she could not cope with. I reckoned then that it would be fifteen to twenty years before Russia would be in a position to fight a major war with a good chance of success."

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        • #49
          USSR, and I am still waiting to her of Stalin could be responsibel for Hitler order to wage a war of annhilation ageist the USSR....
          “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

          Max Sterner

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Erkki View Post
            USSR, and I am still waiting to her of Stalin could be responsibel for Hitler order to wage a war of annhilation ageist the USSR....
            Stalins fault that the Nazis were so successful and I did say the more intelligent would realise I even gave you a clue.

            The Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty not ring any bells?

            Or before then, the Purges of the Red Army officer corps?

            Or later the refusal to believe in the German build-up?

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            • #51
              Ah, you mean in that way! That you didn´t say that at once!
              Well those has been disscussed at other times, I give you some links if I can find them.
              “For there is nothing more serious than a lunatic when he comes to the central point of his lunacy.”

              Max Sterner

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                The opinion of the man seated on the left following a visit in early 1947, him being a Hero of the Soviet Union and all, is worth considering.."
                http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/

                The above link really spells out the situation. You've been shown this before and seem to ignore it.

                The British high command knew they (along with the USA) would lose Europe in a war with the Soviet Union.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
                  http://www.history.neu.edu/PRO2/

                  The above link really spells out the situation. You've been shown this before and seem to ignore it.
                  I've read it. The strength of the Red Army is grossly exaggerated.

                  The British high command knew they (along with the USA) would lose Europe in a war with the Soviet Union.
                  You don't get higher in the British high command than Monty.
                  Operation Unthinkable does not conclude that the Wester Allies would lose.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                    I've read it. The strength of the Red Army is grossly exaggerated.
                    ...and the shortage of riflemen on the Allied side is forgotten after the Bulge.
                    If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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                    • #55
                      The short answer is the Soviet Union would be in serious, deep trouble.

                      First, the loss of material coming from the West would have put a huge dent in production for the Soviets.

                      Worse, the US could launch attacks against Russia not just from Europe but from the Middle East and Asia as well. For example, Sakalin Island is indefensible in this scenario. That loss causes a 25% loss in oil production for the Soviets.
                      The Red Airforce in 1945 is at best equipped with obsolesent aircraft. They have no strategic bomber force. Their medium force is primarily equipped with the Pe 2. Their light bomber is still the Il 2m with a few improved Il 10 in service. In fighters the La 7 and Yak 3 and 9 are the front line machines. They have no nightfighter force to speak of and their air defense systems are primative compared to Western ones.
                      Their army is almost entirely rail dependent for logistics and strategic movement. The much simpler Soviet rail system is also much more vulnerable to a Western bomber campaign than Germany's was.
                      The Red Army never faced the kind of artillery fire the US or British could generate. In counterbattery alone the Soviets are in for a rude shock as their batteries are quickly targetted and silenced. There wouldn't be any of that continual artillery fire so many German sources talk about in discussing the East front. Both the US and British are masters in the field of artillery. Both have radar mortar and shell detection systems in use by 1945 that can back calculate the firing position in minutes or less.

                      I would say that a Red Star - White Star war in 1945 would begin with the Soviets finding themselves pushed back about 300 miles into Eastern Europe and their armies largely in disarray. The loss of Sakalin Island and the destruction of the Siberian rail system strand their armies there so they cannot pull a "1941" miracle and reinforce the West.
                      At this point the Western Armies find they need a break to regroup and move supplies forward. Giving the Soviets a bit of respite except for the partisan activity now directed against them in Eastern Europe. Many of their impressed Eastern European (Poles, Czechs etc.) and Belorussian and Ukranian troops desert to the West.
                      Whether the French jump in or not is irrelevant, although I suspect some componets of their army would have done so regardless.

                      The Soviets would have been hit.

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